Tony Corrales: As a mix of cash equity, sweat equity and convincing my wife we're not going to buy a house, I'm going to start a clothing brand. You've got to pick. It's guys or girls. There is no other option. See a double page of her in the New York Times and she's wearing our boots. That's like. That's cool.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to Add to Cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Every week, Nathan Bush from E Suite and an e commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course, keep your customers. Adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello and welcome to Add to Cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and director at e commerce talent agency eSweet. Now, before we get into today's guest, a little story that is actually relevant. When I was in high school, I was in a band for about three months. A couple of my mates decided they want to create a band based around the Nirvana era of bleach, you know what I mean? 3 chord angry teen rock. And I wanted to be a part of it, except I didn't know any musical instruments. I quickly got up to speed on the bass to the point where I could play three notes and join them in the music room. And I was in my 8 absolute element until they started talking about recording tracks because what they didn't know is I actually played my bass on the minimal volume so that I just blended into the noise and they actually couldn't isolate me. The point where they wanted to isolate my bass scared the hell out of me and I quit straight away. That is my only, only time where I was cool enough to be in a band. I'm not cool. But today's guest is and he's a true musician. He made a living from being in bands and now he's turned his creative talents to fashion, starting a clothing brand with a unique difference. Tony Corrales is the co founder and director of no Skin, a vegan clothing brand that aims to strike the perfect balance of ethics and aesthetics. Based in Collingwood, Melbourne, no Skin produces a made to last range of shoes and clothing using high quality, innovative materials such as Japanese denim and get this, cactus leather. In this chat, Tony shares how no Skin finds the right balance between D2C, marketplace and wholesale. He challenges whether we should actually tick every side of the ethics triangle and talks about why his brand has no male or female categories.
Tony Corrales: Ah.
Nathan Bush: And if you like the idea of wearing shoes fit for a rock star, think Courtney Barnett or Elton John. I know different genres. Stick around to hear the generous offer that Tony has given to ADD to
Nathan Bush: CART listeners at the end of the episode.
Nathan Bush: All right, let's get into it. Thanks to our partners, Shopify plus and Paclio. Here's our conversation with Tony Corrales, co founder and director of no Skin.
Nathan Bush: Tony, welcome to ADD to cart.
Tony Corrales: Thanks for having me, mate. Looking forward to this one.
Nathan Bush: Oh, mate, you're on the other side of the podcast, Mike, this time.
Tony Corrales: Yeah, I know. I've actually done a couple lately. I've been doing a few more guest spots, so to speak, rather than organizing them. So credit to you because you do the hard work in this one. I just show up, so. And you just talk about what you know.
Nathan Bush: Fantastic.
Tony Corrales: Exactly.
Nathan Bush: So we're going to talk about the
Nathan Bush: podcast a little bit later and I want to hear your experience, see what I can learn from you. But first, we're here to talk about no Skin. So tell us, for those who haven't experienced it, seen it, what is no Skin? Skin.
Tony Corrales: Cool. So no Skin is a vegan and ethical footwear and fashion brand. You know, essentially it's. And it may be a subsequent question, but I dive straight in with the rationale behind starting it. But for me, I was vegan for a long time. It's a lot more common now. You know, it still has a little bit of stigma sometimes, but, you know, coming from doing it for 15 years or so, there was massive transitions in even being able to where you could go and eat and things like that. But I actually found, and it was just coincidentally really, when I was getting married a couple of years ago, that I was trying to find a suit that was high quality but wasn't made of wool. You know, vegan problems, right. And then we problems and first world problems. But it just kind of occurred to me there was some cool product out there. It just wasn't marketed well. It wasn't very aspirational, and it seemed like a good opportunity to sort of give back to the community I was a part of, so to speak. But also, you know, a business opportunity as well, when you can find one of the. Those sweet spots as a. That's something you got to jump on.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful.
Nathan Bush: And how have you jumped on it?
Tony Corrales: Well, I jumped on it like there was a lot of coincidences along the way, a lot of kind of serendipitous outcomes. But my wedding photographer happened to also be vegan, just really by chance. And I got talking to him about some of the struggles he'd recently been elevating his business in different directions. We started just chatting business things anyway, you know, nerding out on ideas and things like that. So we ended up kind of co founding this together and he introduced me to our third business partner, Ash, and she's our designer. And that was really a case of he was like, hey, I know this girl. She's been in fashion for years. It's her whole career. We should try and speak with her. And the day that we arranged to meet with her, she'd actually just been made redundant because of COVID From her job with Lee and Wrangler and that kind of denim space, she's like, hey, this sounds sick, like I'm keen to get involved. So it kind of just fell into place and we jumped on that. There's definitely some differences along the way. I mean, in my mind, I come from more of a digital background. That's what I bring. So I was like, okay, it's product, it's E commerce, it's ads, you know, it's ads optimization, conversion. Roas, what are we going to do?
Nathan Bush: It's a simple formula, right?
Tony Corrales: Simple formula, but it's very difficult when you're dealing with sort of higher priced products and you're dealing with what I class more as brand building as well. So jumped on it fully like, all right, get that ads account fired up, let's go. Let's get the Shopify set up and let's optimize the hell out of this and let's start making some cash. But yeah, a couple of harsh reality checks along the way as well, I think.
Nathan Bush: What were the harshest reality checks that you had in those early days?
Tony Corrales: Well, I think one of them was, I mean, launching a business in Covid is actually not as bad as people think it would have been for us because it was a time where I was working in my old job and I was working from home, so they couldn't see that I was spending 50 or 60, 60% of my time launching my own business. So that was a bonus.
Nathan Bush: You were the quiet non quitter. You were just doing something else.
Tony Corrales: Absolutely, yeah. I was just passing more work onto my team, so that was okay. And you know, like, when you haven't got payroll and you haven't got staff and things like that, having Covid and lockdown in your business, being in a bit of a halt doesn't really affect you as much. We hadn't made any money up to this point. So it doesn't matter that we're not making any now. So that was one thing. But you know, a lot of people and a lot of people listening as well will have heard this in and out. But the iOS changes as well come as a bit of a slap in the face when your whole business model is sort of founded around your forecasting of what your click through rate is going to be, what your impressions cost is going to be, everything going through that and then when that all kind of gets thrown into a bit of a upheaval, that puts a lot of pressure on. So for a long time for us we just couldn't get profitable ads and that was the biggest kind of shock for me. You know, I always thought of what are we going to do? Optimize. But we couldn't even get the winners going to optimize on. We were just throwing cash to Mark Zuckerberg and struggling in those first days.
Nathan Bush: What a person to throw cash to.
Tony Corrales: He needs it. Poor guy. But
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Nathan Bush: through the range, you've got some beautiful product in there and obviously all the product is vegan. But what struck me is that the quality of the design, the basics and being built for a lifetime of wear rather than disposable fashion. What was the hardest part about designing vegan boots and clothing?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, well I think going clothing first, one of the hard things in a way is so it is everything is of course vegan as you say and all the clothing has got sustainable or ethical manufacturing processes. So for example we use for our jackets and things, it's a hemp and organic cotton blend. It's a lot less environmentally intensive to use those kind of materials. But of course, rightly so. People would say well what's vegan about a jacket and it's like, well, nothing specifically in this case. It's more the sustainability around it. So I think that's been sometimes hard is to distill the messaging and make that clear. You know, you take a pair of jeans and we use recycled cotton for our Japanese denim, which is really cool. There's not a lot of brands doing it and not as many brands doing it to the percentage of recycled yarns that we use. But there is a vegan element to it and that's just the leather patch that you get on the back of so many pairs of jeans. And if you're a bit of a denim nerd like I am, you're very hard pushed to find a nice pair of Japanese denim jeans that don't have the leather patch because that's a mark of quality. So that's kind of what led us to the whole tagline as well, of all quality, no sacrifices that we're still giving you that. But you know, we're not taking anything away, we're just doing it on a slight alternative. So the shoes in a way was easier. We managed to find an amazing manufacturing partner who has an all vegan factory in Brazil and we've been able to really kind of find out a lot about shoe design on the way. But in some respects it's been easier to do shoes than clothing and it's just because of the scale that clothing needs to be done as well. And you know, again, if you're getting a little bit into the E commerce side of things, if you're dropshipping, for example, super low risk, no stock on hand, obviously your margin's very different and it's a whole challenge in itself. But when you're manufacturing clothes and you haven't even launched yet and you have to get jackets, but you've got to do 300 units, it's a very big challenge because you haven't even really proved the concept. It's quite terrifying when all of this stock arrives and you haven't even launched the site yet. Definitely ways I would do it again, I'd definitely go into a kind of pre order, you know, gauging interest, doing some lead capture, getting people to register interest in the brand, then trying to pre order some things. But even then you're not going to. Well, if you can pre sell 300 jackets at 300 plus dollars off the bat, then fair play to you, go and have a crack. But there was a lot of risk in starting that, which is, you know, I knew would be the case, but it's Only when you see that product start coming into a warehouse space that the stark reality of it kind of hits.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, we've got to shift all this. Did you do any market research before
Nathan Bush: you did that initial order to go?
Nathan Bush: I'm very confident that there's a market for this.
Tony Corrales: I'd love to say yes and make it sound like I was more prepared.
Nathan Bush: And we want the real story, but
Tony Corrales: the real story is not enough, nowhere near enough. And yes, I did, yes, I did suss out and I was. And there's value in doing this, but there's also a lot to be said for it. But I largely, I am my audience and you have to take some of that to heart and think I am solving my own problem. And that's what a lot of good solutions come from, is solving your own problem. And as well. I mean, there are brands out there, there's brands here in Melbourne that do amazing vegan products and have really been able to launch their business into seven figure businesses and things like that. So we know the market is there. One thing we did do is we built our Instagram account quite significantly before launching as a vegan fashion Instagram account. So we were kind of seeing what people were responding to there. We were building that up. You know, it was just a kind of reblogging or reposting kind of account, generating that following. So at least when we did launch, you know, we launched to a following of I think six and a half thousand on Instagram. So we had something to go out with. And along the way then through the design process, it was a lot of polls and things on Instagram. It's like, what color do you like? What's good with this? And again, it would be nice to get poll results that are more than maybe 80 people here and 70 people here. But at least it was something to gauge if we were on the right path to our core demographic as well.
Nathan Bush: And did you have to change anything dramatically after that first order came in and you started selling to that group? Anything you went, oh, we got that really wrong.
Tony Corrales: It was actually there was one thing we got really right. So we very nearly got it very wrong is what that means. But you know, we originally launched and as well, this is the other thing about like we're a bootstrap business. A couple of us put in three founders, you know, as a mix of cash equity, sweat equity and, you know, convincing my wife we're not going to buy a house, I'm going to start a clothing brand. Jeez, you don't make money out of houses. You'd be right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I just knew that it was all going to go to shit. But I mean, we almost didn't make our Chelsea boot, for example. So, you know, and this is something I'll talk a little bit about later, I'm sure, but it was a kind of 11th hour decision when we were deciding on the cut, like literally two styles of footwear we were going to release to begin with. It was we had our combat boot which is like you kind of lace up, Doc Martin ish style boot, if we're being honest. Then you've got, we had our low cut shoe and then we were like, let's not do the low cut shoe, let's do a Chelsea boot, let's go with that one instead. And honestly, if we hadn't launched that Chelsea boot, we wouldn't be a business today. That's been probably 80% of our revenue has come from that one product. Oh wow.
Nathan Bush: Can you describe the Chelsea boot for those who haven't seen it?
Tony Corrales: Yeah. So it's. If you're in Australia, it's basically like a Blundstone style boot is your, you know, your best example. So it's a no laces slip on boot with kind of like the elastic in the side being English. I just didn't realize how much people in Australia love this style of boot. And it really has taken off and that's where our Facebook ads and things have been successful is really pushing that specific product as well. And that's where we then could get into that realm of optimizing. But yeah, without that, honestly I think it would actually be a different story. Probably wouldn't still be operating today is part of that.
Nathan Bush: Because if you look at that style of boot, RM Williams owns a lot of that market in the leather, on the leather side and they have a, you know, known for a very high price point. Did that frame of reference kind of help you when you're going out with a quality product as well?
Tony Corrales: I actually think that's really what it is between RM and Blundstones as people are really familiar with that. They have that point of reference exactly as you say, for the price. There is actually now a vegan Blundstone which, you know, luckily doesn't seem to have hurt too much, but it's also a little bit different to what we're doing. And yeah, I think that was it. And even Doc Martens, they do the lace up style but they do a vegan version. And I think people are Very much into that. So you'll hear my cat meowing multiple times through this.
Nathan Bush: I'm sure I'll shut my door to keep mine out.
Tony Corrales: Yeah, it's so. Yeah, I think that definitely helps give people that price point of reference. And as well, there was a real demand, I suppose, in the market for a vegan version of that. Although, honestly, there are lots of vegan companies doing these boots. But I think for us, a big thing was having a bit of an aesthetically different style to some of those other brands. And I'd actually say in the last couple of years, since we've been operating, it is very different. But going back to why I jumped onto this opportunity was because there were some awesome products out there from vegan companies that have been doing it for years and years. But sometimes, and I don't mean any disrespect to some of the other companies, but the marketing and the perception and the whole. Even the photography behind it was just a bit lacking and it gave that perception of it's a lesser quality or it doesn't play in the same realm as these other brands. So I think us doing it with aesthetics in mind the whole way just bought people on and got them a little bit more engaged.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, absolutely. You can tell there's a brand behind this. There's an idea behind it. I love browsing through your site. It's phenomenal in terms of the photography, the content. It feels more like a magazine to me than it does a retail shop.
Tony Corrales: Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what we've gone for. It's very Melbourne. Like we're, you know, that is. It's part of the brief that we contain is this is what we want to do. And I think for me as well, you know, coming here from London, I love the Melbourne culture and the arts culture and stuff. And I was like, I want to be a part of that. This is how we can do that. And we want to project that from our brand as well.
Nathan Bush: What struck me about the photography is that, yes, it's very Melbourne and you can see Melbourne shining through, but it also feels very worldly, you know what I mean? Like, you could go, you could see all this in Melbourne, but you go, this could be anywhere in the world as well. How do you brief in a photographer to get the look and the feel of the brand that you're trying to portray?
Tony Corrales: One of the things is going for consistency. So, for example, one of the co founders is a photographer. So because he was my wedding Photographer. So that's where we started with a lot of that, lives that. So he's done a lot of our stuff. So one of the first hires we made really is, like I said, one day a week is Jack, who's a photographer who works with us. Awesome guy, really just understood the brand. But we really found someone whose natural work and the work that they do for their own portfolio was, you know, not too far removed from what our stuff wanted to look like anyway. And, you know, to be honest, at the stage we're at as well, having dedicating staff and bringing someone in to do just photography one day a week as well is quite an outlay and it's quite a big jump to make. But for us, when you're predominantly an online brand, it's key. And every week that goes past, there's less briefing, there's less discussion. It's, you know, he's living, breathing it as we are and then putting his own flare on it as well. So I think that's what's helped. And even down to, you know, when it comes to your ecom photography as well, we've gone for the kind of clean, white background, you know, ghost images of product. It's just an area where I kind of won't spare the expense, just go for it. You know, it's. That stuff lasts you a long time. And I think by doing that it's. To be honest, I think a lot of people look at our brand and we've come a long way and I'm really proud of where we're at at the moment, but there's a hell of a long way to go. But I think the external perception is that we are competing up in those higher realms and that's why people do then trust the brand to spend the money on it. And that's because we've invested in the content upfront as well. And I think when you've got products that are in the kind of $200 plus region, as you know, many of us are in the $300 plus region, you're just not going to capture people unless you can really get that trust across the line. And you have to come across professional.
Nathan Bush: And you mentioned doing things differently. And what I loved about what you were saying earlier was around, yes, we are a vegan retail business, but there's a layer of sustainability. There's a deeper story than just slapping a vegan label on everything.
Tony Corrales: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And one of the things that I noticed that you do differently that I haven't seen at all in Australia I've seen a couple of times overseas is that you actually don't have male or female categories. Everything is unisex. Did you have that vision right from the very start?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, we definitely did. It was always something, you know, you take a boot for example, is that can often be the case. But from our side it was, it's twofold. 90% of the reason is because that's just how we believe. Again, we're in Melbourne here, we're in a really progressive and great environment and we believe that, you know, the kind of neutrality behind it is what people are moving more towards. We want anyone to feel comfortable shopping with us and buying from us. And I think we've done a really good job of conveying that as well. And you know, we see that within our market and people are really happy to have those options. And I think part of it was in the clothing. It comes down to how you design things. And we're lucky that our designer Ash has really had great knowledge and a great career to be able to say, I can design a pair of jeans that can be worn a little bit lower around the waist if you're a guy and it just fits like a straight pair of 501s kind of thing. But if you wear them a size down and you wear them a bit more high waisted for girls and it fits more like, you know, more flattering fit and stuff like that. And that just comes from really good product design knowledge. But then in the shoes, it's in a way it's like, you know, we've just, or we're about to release a vegan snake skin or crocodile skin orange mule, which is like a backless shoe. And I mean it just, to me it just screams out. And John, like, I love the brashness
Nathan Bush: of it, he's coming to Australia soon. You should see if you can get
Nathan Bush: a pair on his feet.
Tony Corrales: Oh man, that'd be so good. I reckon he'd get around them. They're right up his alley. But you know, honestly, to be unisex and do that in the shoes is, yes, the reality is it's probably a more feminine shoe, but it doesn't harm us to make it up into the larger sizes. You know, we can, we're obviously not making as many in a size 45 or like, you know, a guy's size 12 as we are in like what would be more women's sizes? But what harm does it do us to give everybody the opportunity to buy them as long as we're just smart about the quantities that we put into the different size breaks.
Nathan Bush: And it's just not putting a label on them then, is it?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, exactly. It's like these are open to anyone. And, you know, we've had some fun, like discussions around this in the case. Like we're stocked on the Maya website, for example, as well. You know, we're on a few marketplaces or just on a few different sites in different ways. And Maya is very much like, you've got to pick. It's guys or girls. You don't get to. There is no other option. So for the stuff that we stock with Maya, we'll stock that in the guys section. Because for us, just commercially it made more sense with some of the products we had. But then we'll go on to other sites and if we have to choose, it's like it's a more female directed site, so it'll go into that. But given the choice as much as possible, we'll always. And even in the descriptions, if you see it on the Maya website, it still states it's unisex because we still want to hold true to the fact that this is for everybody.
Nathan Bush: That's interesting. So you couldn't tick both boxes?
Tony Corrales: No. Their system won't let you effectively like duplicate the product and have it in both places.
Nathan Bush: Did you have any further conversations with them about that around what they're kind of doing to address that? Because it is, like you said, it's an emerging market.
Tony Corrales: There's a couple of things there. One is that their system is, you know, even though. And we kind of do it through a third party. So it's just a little bit of a outdated system and everyone's aware of that. You know, in something that big, it's not as easy as just flicking an update and doing that. So fair enough to them. And I guess as well, I'd love to be in a position to actually try and force a bit more of that change, but we were stoked to get on there and sometimes you've got to pick the battle a little bit as well. And for us it was testing a market. So, yeah, I think they're seeing it more and more and I think they will work towards that change and we're happy to be their voice to help them on that journey. But yeah, I think sometimes as well we've just got to accept that what we do is a little bit outside of the norm in doing it that way. I know there's a lot of brands out there as well who will have everything as Unisex styling, but then they will still have a men's and women's section on their website just so they can show the product. Same products in both sections, but here's all the pictures of it on a guy, here's all the pictures on a girl. But if we're going into that unisex rep, just take away the labels, I think that's the best way to do it.
Nathan Bush: Do you find too, from a marketplace perspective, is that your points of difference around unisexual vegan sustainability? Have you had the case of marketplaces or retailers reaching out to you saying, we want to stock this because it's a gap that we've got now, Mark, and we know, you know, to your point earlier, right at the start of the conversation, you said you were a vegan 15 years ago, but you've noticed, you know, that change and become more popular over time. Have you seen people reaching out to you so that they can be part of this growing movement?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, we actually have. We actually try and limit the amount of marketplaces we're on because I'm also, you know, again, getting more into the technical side. I'm aware that it's great for our SEO to start getting backlinked from these other sites. That's awesome. But I'm also conscious that, you know, the Maya website is going to have far more SEO authority. And if people Google no skin boots and they start getting Maya in all the shopping ads and that, and we, as you'd imagine, get a lot less money from someone buying it from Maya rather than buying from our website directly. We don't want to just be cannibalizing all of our D2C revenue, basically. So it has to be a bit of a discussion around what makes sense for us. But then we haven't actually sort of formally signed the papers on it, so. But hey, by the time this goes out, we're going to be joining on to Westfield Direct as well, which is like Westfield's E Commerce. But the guy I spoke to there, he's, you know, obviously responsible for acquiring new brands and getting them onto the platform, but he himself was vegan and liked us, so he was advocating for that. So I think it is. It's like, hey, let's fill the gap. There's. I think it gets us. You know, realistically, we've been a brand for a couple of years and we're going to be on Westfield Direct, we're going to be on my up. We're on a couple of other marketplaces and things like Wolf and Badger, which is like specifically ethical ones. We're probably able to put ourselves in a few more household name retailers because we are providing a point of difference at this time. So I definitely don't think it's hurting.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I totally get your, your battle there with the balance between the D2C and the exposure through the marketplaces. Especially when you built such a beautiful brand as you have, you want people to experience it in full, right?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, that's it. And yeah, it's a little bit of a compromise. I mean, it depends who you go with and some of the opportunities you get to showcase the brand. And yeah, I think, look, we honestly had this and I think it's good to have the open discussion around it as well as we have a conversation. Like it's. You say that you're on Maya, for example, and that's. That's great. And people suddenly, you get that trust, Mark. So even if somebody comes and we've got a showroom store as well that we open, it's basically our warehouse. We open two days a week. People can come and try things on a shop in store, so to speak. And if someone's passing by and they pop in and they're like, oh, is there anywhere else I can go and get this? It's like, oh, if you, if you're in Melbourne or Sydney, you can go into Maya and get it. They suddenly are like, they'll pick something up again and be like, okay, so you're legit. You know, it gives people that reinforcement. And honestly, that that's priceless in many scenarios. But we do see ourselves as quite a boutique brand that you would find in the sort of like boutique side streets or something like that. Not necessarily in a department store. So it's like we're getting the trust equity, but are we a department store brand? Like, these conversations have to be there. But in the early days, any exposure is good exposure for the most part.
Nathan Bush: Oh, look.
Nathan Bush: And I think it's a good thing on both sides, really. There is the balance there. But, you know, I know a fair few people in Maya too, and I know they're putting a lot of effort into making sure their range is interesting, that they're supporting up and coming designers, brands and all that sort of stuff. Not to just get stuck in the same old names that we see over and over again.
Tony Corrales: Yeah. And that was actually one of the things that really got us. And I said got us across the line. Like we were, we were stoked to be part of that. And they've been so cool to work with as well. Unlike the third party that we work through and everything for Maya. But the actual fact that they wanted to partner with, it's called Emerge, and that's like, what's within Maya and puts brands like us in there. And the fact that they wanted to do something that was highlighting Australian brands and brands with a sustainable element. It's like you've got to commend people for moving in the direction that we want to move in. It does take time to make the shift. The products can often be more expensive when you're going down this route. We're really aware of that as well. So when we see a company like Maya who can have some real significant impact in a good way if they start making these changes, then we want to back that and we want to be part of that journey. So, yeah, it's a great thing for them to be doing as well.
Nathan Bush: I have a very important announcement for you. Shopify's team have officially exported all of their code, plonked it in an esky, and submerged it into the Arctic. The official code freeze has begun running from November 18 to November 22. Shopify will not ship any new platform
Nathan Bush: changes to production during this time.
Nathan Bush: But instead of using all that ice for a delicious cocktail, the Shopify team are all hands on deck ready to support you while you maximize your peak sales. They are right beside you, and they actually might need your help to remove
Nathan Bush: some of their tongues from the frozen code. On the other side of this.
Nathan Bush: Good luck this Black Friday go.
Nathan Bush: Well, One of the other things we mentioned, unisex, but one of the other things that I noticed that you do very differently. And I love when I go on to news sites and I have a browse around, you know, in the research for these interviews, and I go, what can we talk about? It's a bit different because, you know, you can kind of notice the Shopify template straight away. And there's product pages and you can kind of, you know, the flow. I spotted a few things that was different with yours. And the thing that stood out to me was on your product pages, you actually had factory details. And you talked about your Brazilian factory before, but in detail around where it's located. Their production volume, the amount of employees, their working hours, their salaries. I've never seen that done before. What gave you that idea and why is that important to you to make public?
Tony Corrales: The idea is not so much an idea. It's a response to what our consumers want to see as well. And it's a response as well to what I want to see. And to take a slight tangent, I suppose we're coming back round to it and because this aligns with a lot of what I do within ethical fashion or within ethical business and things like that as well, is you've really got what I class as like a trifecta or a triangle of your ethics and the impact that you make. You've got the people, the planet and animals. And honestly, if you're out there and you've made a product and you want to try and do something with an element of the ethical mindset behind it, nailing all three of the sides of those triangles is really, really difficult, especially in a cost effective and pragmatic way as well. Profitable and to build like it's extremely challenging. And for us, we're all. And transparency is huge for us. And exactly as I'll be now. So with our Brazilian factory is people. And that kind of side of the triangle is awesome. We've got all of that information, so we want to share that and we want to make a big deal of it because we're really proud to be able to do that. When I face time with our manufacturing agent and he's there basically on the factory floor, it's great to see that happening and to know that it's being made in a good way. Especially because, you know, there's a lot of dark and kind of undercover, kind of nasty stuff that happens out there. The animal side of it as well is we're really, you know, obviously for us, that's a huge thing. We're a vegan brand. So that actually basically comes first and foremost in everything we do. You have to kind of put them somewhat into a prioritization order. And that factory is an all vegan factory. It's actually the world's first all vegan shoe factory. There's others now, but this was the first one which is really cool.
Nathan Bush: And did you know about them before you went into or had the idea for no Skin or do you came across it as you were exploring options?
Tony Corrales: So I guess the story that is actually pretty cool for anyone who's looking to make product is if you've ever tried to get into clothing or footwear manufacturing, it is the weirdest industry. And I had no background in this and this was before I met our designer as well. So you sit down and you're like, all right, we're all ecom nerds here. So what's your logical thing you're going to do? You're going to sit down and you're going to Google clothing manufacturing, footwear manufacturing, you know, whatever it is. And it's like if these factories do have websites, they look like they were made 20 years ago and they're like one pair. It's just not doable. There's no contact information. There might be like a couple of pictures of some random jackets and you're like, is this for like how do these people get work? But that's just not how that industry works. It's referrals or companies have worked with companies for years. So I'd kind of delved in that. And I was like, you know what, I'm not going to get into the realm of manufacturing. Originally I was actually going to be a retailer. So my idea was kind of a marketplace or it was to source vegan products of lots of brands and the highlights and then make that into an online store. So there was a shoe brand I really wanted to stock in my original idea. So I contacted them and said, hey, can I buy from you wholesale? What's the prices? Or that kind of thing? And they were like, oh, we actually you can do that all directly through our manufacturer because they ship straight from the factory when it's made. So here's the email address. Get in touch with them. So I emailed him and he was like, yep, I can do that. Here's the details. I also create for all of these other vegan shoe companies as well. Would you like to know anything about those? So hang on a minute mate. So you're a vegan shoe manufacturer. I was like, what if I just wanted to make my own shoe, like. And he basically outlined this is the process. So I was like, all right, I'm not selling for anyone else. I'm going to make my own shoes. So it was just by pure kind of chance that I found this manufacturer and it's just been a great relationship with them as well. But sort of going back to what I'm saying is with those guys, it's great. It's a vegan factory. It's from the people perspective, it's great. But the reality is as well as environmentally, our shoes are from microfiber. Polyurethane is the vegan leather material. And that's a, it's a petroleum derived material. It's effectively, you know, I don't say plastic because that totally changes what you see of it. But it's an oil based material that's not particularly environmentally friendly. You know, it's very different to using single use straws or things like that. It's not, you know, these products last for years and years, so. And there's so much that we have that has got petroleum derived materials, but it doesn't tick every bar. It doesn't tick every side of the triangle, which is why we're trying now we're sampling with a product called Mirror, which is an environmentally friendly vegan leather alternative. Because our hope is then that will be the opportunity for us to say we take every side of the triangle and we can be cost effective and profitable. But it's hard. And that's why transparency is so important, because it's almost like if you don't outlay this stuff upfront, especially when you're trying to do the right thing, someone will make you. And that's good. I'm glad that people are calling that out because that's what we need more of, is more transparency.
Nathan Bush: But I love that. And it reminds me of the Myer conversation we have is like, you don't need to tick every box as long as you're moving in the right direction. Direction and you're open and honest with where you're heading.
Tony Corrales: Absolutely. Yeah. It's about moving in the right direction. Like, no one's ethically perfect. No one's ethically perfect and profitable. That's for sure as well. And, you know, that's a big part of what I do with my podcast as well, is having those discussions. But it's about moving in the right direction and commending those who try. You know, like, there's a lot of stuff you could say about a company like H and M and their practices, but they are moving in the right direction. So support the things they're trying to do in the right direction. Because once they get good response to doing some good things, they'll know that there's a market and a demand to do other good things as well.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. I've got to ask you, as I was researching, you mentioned some of the materials that you're using. Cactus leather. What is cactus leather?
Tony Corrales: So cactus leather is specifically at the moment created from a company in Mexico called Desserto. Really cool material. Material. And it's effectively the pulp. It's cactuses that are pulped down. So they're grown sustainably, pulped down, and basically then made into fibers. That's about as technical as I can get with the construction of it. Yeah. But yeah, it's then tightly woven, like with the pulp from the cactus, and obviously then dyed and done like that as well, and bind and bound with some other materials. So that you get a really, really good replica leather feel that you can then use from anything from bags to wallets. And on our bomber jacket we've got that for the collar and like the pull, the zip pulls and things like that. It's not really suitable for shoes at this stage and as well, it's pretty expensive.
Nathan Bush: I was about to say it sounds expensive.
Tony Corrales: Yeah, it is. So I mean that's why for us we use it as accent pieces on our items. You could make a wallet out of it and you'd be charging a decent amount for the wallet but you could still have a good margin on that. I know another company who does a backpack of it and that starts to get a bit, starts to push the boundaries a little bit and you start having to, yeah, really, really kind of charge for that product, which obviously some people are really happy for. But the whole plant based leather space is really evolving quite quickly. Samiram, the one that we're looking at is, I think it's BMW recently have just released a car that uses that for their seats. You know, the material we use is similar to what you'd find in a Tesla because they won't use leather in their materials as well. So it's coming a long way. And you know, the more cars that BMW make with a plant based leather alternative, the more cost effective that's going to be for brands like us to make clothing from it.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And I think the more it changes customers expectations.
Tony Corrales: Absolutely. And just the again it's the trust mark that if these guys are, you know, if these guys are using it for their cars, they're not going to use something that's not good quality and not durable.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, absolutely. Just changing track a little bit there is that. I love your series. Coffee with a Creative. If you go on the no Skin website, look at the journal, there's a few blog posts and basically sitting down with a bunch of creatives. I saw you did the chat with Courtney Barnett, which I was very jealous of. She's amazing.
Tony Corrales: It was great.
Nathan Bush: You seem to have a really strong community of creatives around you and I can see where they get it from. Like just speaking to you, how this been intentional to have this community feel around it as well. Has it grown naturally?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, it has grown really naturally and honestly I'd love to have been able to do more with some of that stuff but you know, time and everything that goes with it and we've got a backlog of people who are, you know, keen to be involved but I think a big thing as well. And it goes back to what I was saying, saying at the start is it was that bit of a reality check that we're not selling like for example, a teeth whitening product which you can do loads of UGC marketing for and you can pump your ads behind it and you can sell it at I'd say like fifty, seventy five dollar price point. And smash ads like that was what I thought I was going to try and do. And it, it just wasn't applicable for this product. And that's, you know, a huge realization for me. So then I had to really change my focus and stop watching courses or stop reading content about optimization of ads and start looking at how to build brand and tribes and cultures and things like that. And for me as well, that's a big part of what I've wanted to do as well is I come from the music scene. That's what I did for years. I was like a touring musician for five or six years and I actually had a realization, which I've said a few times now, maybe six months ago, that if you want to do something where it costs you a lot of money to get started, it's a real hard slog to get people to know about it. The top couple of percent of people will actually make a good living from it and get to live the dream. And the rest of people will probably have to like jack it in one day and say it was fun. You've got two choices. You can start a band or a clothing label. It's really basically the same. But that means you've got to have fun with it because this is not, it's not a cash machine business, it's a brand building and it's a culture building. So you've got to find ways to have fun with it. And for me, that's getting to hang out with people like Courtney Barnett. That was a scene I loved being in. I don't do it as much as a performer now, but I'm like, how can we get involved with that? And then there's such, you know, I love when that Shopify noise goes off on my phone. Like, who doesn't? That's great. But seeing Courtney Barnett on the stage of the Ellen show or like see a double page of her in the New York Times and she's wearing our boots for us, that's really good. And it means that Courtney Barnett, that's a great person to have involved. But then when the next week we get, you know, like we've just done something with a company called Studio Ting who are great artists, and they obviously, you know, they don't have the same exposure and reach as Courtney Barnett. So for us to be able to show them to all of our followers and all of our email subscribers and the people who visit our website is like, supporting culture, and it's supporting art and it's supporting people doing cool things. Just the way that Vans supported the skate scene back in the day or Red Bull supported extreme sports. Like, it's like, what's our way of doing that? And for us, that's arts and culture.
Nathan Bush: That's a great analogy. I love that analogy.
Tony Corrales: Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, hopefully we can just be as big as Vans or Red Bull. That'd be great.
Nathan Bush: So, looping back to the podcast, and I think it ties in well with supporting the community and being part of that community. You run the Producing With Purpose podcast, and you've got some amazing e commerce brands in there. Bellroy, Eva. Thank you, Patagonia. Who are you inspired by?
Tony Corrales: I think I'm inspired by, I guess, in a way, like, I got into. I didn't always think I'd start my own business, so to speak. Like, I, you know, was working in digital and working in agencies and stuff and really, really enjoyed my time there. It got to a point where I just wanted to break out and do my own thing. So I'm really just inspired by people who start businesses or go out and do their own thing and take the risk, because it's scary who take that risk and they make it, to an extent, even harder for themselves because they do it with this undercurrent of their ethics all the way through as well. And they do something where it's not just serving them in their bottom line. They're trying to actually make a difference as well. So, I mean, I'm obviously inspired by brands like Patagonia because they've taken that and done an amazing job with it. But then I'm also really inspired by people who have quit their job and they want to be at the local farmers market selling like a local kombucha kind of thing, because they feel that that's, you know, they want to introduce that into the market and they want to give consumers this alternative option, even if for them that means, you know, turning down a good salary, a stable job and paid leave. That's more important to them to try and share that with the world. And they're the kind of people that I want to help with my podcast and give them some of the insights as well, to lift them up and help them make more impact in their business. So yeah, so I'm inspired by people at both ends of the spectrum of that.
Nathan Bush: Amazing. And we'll put a link into the show notes to the podcast for those who want to dive into the world with you. I saw that you took a little bit of a break. It sounds like you've got a few things on at the moment. But you've started back up the podcast now.
Tony Corrales: Yeah, no, I have, I did take a break and it's actually been, it's been a real like thing hanging over me that I've been quite frustrated about is having that break. And honestly it's one of those things that you procrastinate on releasing an episode and then that spirals and then you're not doing it and then you kind of park it and man. And as you know, the key to doing well with a podcast is consistency. So then once you've had that you're like, man, I haven't done this for like six to eight weeks. You're like, well, I'm back at square one. So then you've got to try and gee yourself up to start again. And I suppose I was a little bit surprised about the people I managed to get for the podcast as well. So I got into this really good run with it. Yeah. And it's. But I mean I'm coming back and forth. I'm actually making, you know, I've through all this time as well. I consult for other businesses like I do digital agency consulting as well. I do E Com consulting and things like that. But I've actually quit more and more of that stuff now to double down on what I'm doing. So the podcast is coming back in full force and we'll actually soon be releasing some free and some paid resources as well of how to like scale purpose driven businesses both online and offline, which is really exciting. But it's a lot of behind the scenes work.
Nathan Bush: Brilliant. Well, if they are ready as well by the time we go to air, we'll, we'll include a link there. But absolutely. Check out the Producing With Purpose podcast. Some brilliant brands in there and some great conversation. Cheers. Tony, what is next for yourself and Noskin? What's next on the radar?
Tony Corrales: Yeah, well it's, we're about to launch what is more of our summer campaign but then we don't really do sort of seasonal campaigns in the same way. We try to be more of a, you know, seasonless, timeless brand really. But we will be coming in with, we've got our Loafer range coming, which is a little bit more summery in the shoe style of things. We've just released our kind of shirting range as well, like long sleeve, short sleeve shirt. So there's a lot of that stuff. But I think as well there's a lot to come from us in the shoes and more doubling down into the shoe realm of things. I think, you know, we've definitely found our voice more as a brand and I think now we're just really refining where we sit in terms of our product offering as well. And I think for us it feels like we're doing what we intend to do for the community by like really offering good, high quality, aesthetically pleasing vegan footwear and like statement outerwear pieces as well. So like the jacket we do. So I think there's maybe even a little bit of refinement in the product line to come. It's hard to not just want to do more and more products and that's, you know, again, that's one of the things you learn when running an E comm business as well. But yeah, I think that's what's coming for us. Yesterday I was actually at a pop up for Melbourne Fashion Week as part of a wildlife free fashion initiative. There's. So we're going to be trying to do some more of that stuff as well. We've got a couple of collabs coming out in the future, which is sort of just being talked about now, but some pretty exciting stuff there.
Nathan Bush: The Elton John collab, of course.
Tony Corrales: Yeah. I say it's in the pipeline, really. That's just what I want to do now. So let's go make it happen. Right? Yeah. So, yeah, I think there's. It's pretty exciting for the year ahead. So, yeah, really appreciate anyone who wants to come and give us a follow. You know, obviously we love when people buy, but we also just love people to be there for the journey as well and get the opportunity to share and see the creatives and the art that we're showcasing as well.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful. So dials perfectly into my next question. How can people do that? How can people get in touch? Cool.
Tony Corrales: So Instagram is obviously a solid one for us. That's O Skin Co. The website is Noskin Co. They're probably the two key places. Don't go anywhere near the TikTok yet. I'm figuring that shit out.
Nathan Bush: So probably the best time to have a look now.
Tony Corrales: Yeah, that's it. Go and have a look now. Where it's me being like, hey, do you like the shoes. Total transparency. Yeah, exactly. So transparency, it's funny old game over on that platform as well, but it's the future, man. So no Instagram and the website is best. And, you know, even hit us up on the live chat, hit us up on the dms like we, we really like to be. To just chat to people. And if you're intrigued, you want to know more about vegan shoes or vegan fashion or why, you know, more about why we do it and that kind of stuff as well. Like, we're here to talk about it and to engage and to do that. And if you want recommendations of cool artists to check out, drop us a message. We're just here for the chat.
Nathan Bush: So many good chat options.
Tony Corrales: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Tony, thank you so much for sharing the story so far. Love what you're doing, love your purpose and love your esthetic and the brand you're creating. So thank you for sharing on Add to cart.
Tony Corrales: Appreciate it, mate. Thanks for having me.
Nathan Bush: See Cool. Well, cooler than me anyway, and super interesting if you want to be cooler than me. Not hard and almost as cool as Tony. He has included a very special offer for Add to Cart listeners. Simply visit Noskin Co. That's Noskin Co. And use the code NOSKIN. 50 all one word. No skin. 50 for $50 off all orders over $150. All right, here are the three lessons that I took from my conversation with Tony. Number one, transparency. Proof points. I don't know about you, but I always get suspicious of people who say trust me. I mean, that's a reason not to trust them. If you have to tell people to trust me, I can't remember what movie that is out of, but it's always stayed with me. The same goes for brands who say they're transparent, ethical or sustainable. Unless there are proof points, it can actually arouse more suspicion. I love no Skin's factory transparency. When they share exactly where the items are made and the conditions they're made in. A great proof point to walk the walk. Number two, give and take partnerships for the bigger mission. Tony surprised me in there when he was so honest and pragmatic about no Skins relationship with department stores such as Maya. Now, while they're not the ideal terms he'd like to trade under, he knew that what he was getting was so important in achieving the bigger mission of no Skin. He had to give a little bit to make the impact, even if wasn't perfect. I think we can all learn something from that. And number three, shameless borrowing in true musician and artist style. Tony constantly referenced the designs and brands that he looked up to and shamelessly copied and it's not a bad thing or something that we should shy away from, especially if you put your own spin on it. I mean, we wouldn't have Oasis without the Beatles, right? Hey, one last little thing before you have head out of here. I don't know if you've noticed, but if you follow us on Instagram Add to Cart show make sure that you have a look at our stories because I've gotten the habit of every Friday posting the upcoming interviews that we're having on Add to Cart and it's your chance to leave a message or a note on the questions that you want asked. So if you follow us on Instagram Add to Cart show, make sure you keep an eye out for that because I would love to start incorporating some of your voices. Leave them as voice messages or your questions and I'll give you a shout out on the podcast when I ask our guests your questions. So give us a follow on Instagram. That's to Cartshow. Keep an eye out for our stories. I'd love to hear your voice on there. To get the highlights of today's episode, head on over to add to cart.com and sign up for our free newsletter each Tuesday. We will send Monday's episode summary links and discount codes for you to go next level on. And if you're looking to explore your next e commerce opportunity, come and Visit us at eSweet. We're a dedicated e commerce talent agency connecting the best e commerce talent with the fastest growing brands in Australia. Head on over to esweettalent.com au where you can download the free ecommerce Salary guide and sign up to our weekly e commerce job emails. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those customers adding to car.
