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[Voiceover]: Welcome to the Checkout. We catch up with previous add to cart guests and ask them five quick questions to get to know them better and leave you with a little extra inspiration to get through your Friday. Here's your host, Bushy.
[Ad]: Today's checkout checkout features Sonja Friedrich, a behavioral science strategist with a background in business marketing. Sonja works with academics, data scientists and tech experts to harness the power of behavioral economics for businesses and brands. And she works with clients such as News Corp, AstraZeneca, Volvo and Nespresso.
Nathan Bush: Sonia, welcome to the Checkout. We've had a great conversation on our main episode around behavioral economics, how nudges can work on your website, and the amazing AI tool called Bhamics that you are launching here in Australia with great success so far. But we're here to learn a little bit more about you. I've got five quick questions for you. Number one, what's the weirdest thing that you've ever bought online?
Sonia Friedrich: Oh, I don't think I buy anything weird online, Nathan, but I think what I buy regularly, though, is I love photography.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Sonia Friedrich: And I've been able to find a supplier. We create greeting cards that we sell at some of the local bookshops. That's probably the closest to weird, but it's not really weird.
Nathan Bush: We've heard about your bamboo straw crusade, but that was live.
Sonia Friedrich: That was a physical experience. I'm sure we've bought plenty of gadgets that were so weird that we just threw away. I do know I've bought things and just gone, well, this was a waste of time. I've just thrown it straight in the bin, but I can't remember what they are, so I definitely didn't want to hardwire them in my brain.
Nathan Bush: Well, I mean, your nature photography. I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole in our research and I found your nature photography website and you've got some beautiful shots, including the one behind you of whale breaching. That must be a passion that really keeps you excited and connected with nature.
Sonia Friedrich: Oh, it's true, Nathan. You know, I think in another lifetime I would have been an international photographer if I was brought up in a slightly different way and had that experience or that desire molded around me instead of going down the business vein. So I'm very lucky too. I think connecting with nature is number one and it keeps you grounded and you just go off into a meditation in another world. So when I'm thinking all day in my head, it's nice to have a passion for photography. And where I live, we're so, so lucky. You know, in Byron Bay we've got so much nature around us and the whale season's only a few months away, so we do go out quite a lot with the whales and we sell some of our work locally and then online.
Nathan Bush: Behavioral economics during the week, nature photography on the weekend. How good's that? All right, number two, who is your favourite retailer?
Sonia Friedrich: So on land because again, because I'm in Byron, my favorite retail experience is going to Harbour Town. And so my partner and I go there twice a year and roughly and we never know what the experience will be but we usually find that we spend about $2,000 and save about the same. And so because there's no close shopping center here, that's something that we go, well, let's commit to and get our listing and go up there. And it's been quite amazing. If I'm online though, I found Calvin Klein works well for me. I like Armani as well, but that can be a little bit expensive. And there's a retail shop and a shop in Byron itself called Unplugged and I'm quite a regular in that shop.
Nathan Bush: You got tastes everywhere. Retail tastes are very broad. Yeah, love it. All right, number three, which E commerce practice do you wish was history?
Sonia Friedrich: I really wish the friction in unsubscribing was history. And I believe the now that people actually segment the different levels as unsubscription. You know, I think I had one the other day. There were 14 different things I needed to unsubscribe from or I would still be getting mail from that person. I think, I think that ought to be banned myself.
Nathan Bush: Have you come across in your travels any research around and you may not have around the long term impact of making that unsubscribe process so difficult?
Sonia Friedrich: Actually, I assume there's research on it. A friend or collaborator of Mine, Roger Dooley. He's an expert in the space of and speaks only on friction in the U.S. he writes for Four magazine over there and he speaks about this like his whole world is about uncovering friction. That is annoying. And the impact has on brands. I don't think a lot of people would tell you how much it's cost them, but we did some work for the Wall Street Journal and the Dow Jones Group. I was collaborating with some people from Australia, London and the US on it. And so I subscribed because of the work we were doing. And to unsubscribe, I literally had to call America and get them to take me off the Wall Street Journal and to find the number. Actually, Roger sent it to me in an email. He said, if you ever need to get out of it, here's how you. Because it's so difficult to find the number on their website. So, you know, I think for brands that are high value brands, I think there is a backfire effect. Would I ever sign up to them again? No. If I was speaking to somebody about the Wall Street Journal, I would just say be very wary about their unsubscribe policy.
Nathan Bush: Yep. Big brand damage.
Sonia Friedrich: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Number four, can you recommend a book or a podcast that our listeners should immediately get into?
Sonia Friedrich: Sure. So here's a book here called Free youe Mind, and it's by a consultant who I work with, Patrick Fagan. Patrick Fagan is based in London and he's a behavioral scientist. And he's actually ex Cambridge Analytica. He worked with them on the brand side. He's written two books and this last year came out and made the top 10 London Times bestseller list. So I recommend that. It's the New World of Manipulation and how to Resist It.
Nathan Bush: Oh, look out from the Master himself. Let's hope our customers don't read it.
Sonia Friedrich: I think, actually, I disagree, Nathan, because I think this is where we have to uphold who we are and what we do. And look, I'm a marketer by training, so I've always said, well, our job is to persuade customers, you know, verging on manipulation. And you go, well, everybody's spending all that money on advertising and they're still spending all their money and the clients are spending all this money. Yet today, if we actually go, well, let's get smarter about how you spend that money. You don't have to spend as much of it and a client can have a better experience. And again, if you're upholding your brand value, you do it to uphold a brand and give them an experience and do it in the best way possible. And I think you have to truly ask yourself, are we trying to deceive them in any way? And if the answer's yes, then you go, well, don't do it. It's pretty simple.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful. I like that. I like that a lot. All right, I'm glad you disagreed with me. Number five, finish this sentence. The future of retail is.
Sonia Friedrich: The future of retail is dead and really alive.
Nathan Bush: Cryptic.
[Ad]: What do you mean?
Sonia Friedrich: You can choose where you want to be on that, I believe. And for some people, the future of retail is going to be their death. Yet if they embrace different ways of thinking about the customer, their business, and online, which we do know, some of those businesses that have actually embraced online are getting the returns. If you really understand the negative impact of discounting and what it does to brand value from a human brain perspective, you wouldn't rely on your discounting as much and you wouldn't get into that loop of discounting is the only way we get clients. And I think so. For others, the future of retail is extremely bright. And, you know, you look at LMVH, they've just had 8% increase in profit, $38 billion brand growth. So smart brands know what to look for. And I think if you don't understand your data, you need to understand the data to make sure you're solving the right problem instead of just being on the mouse wheel and doing the same thing. And that's the problem is most people are not solving the right problem.
Nathan Bush: I love it. Sonja, thank you so much for joining us on the checkout.
Sonia Friedrich: Thanks
[Ad]: to hear more from Sonya. Jump back into episode 392, where Sonja reveals the world of nudges and sludges. She tells us how a friction audit works, and she shares the website feature known as the $300 million button. Do you know what button I'm talking about? Thanks for listening. And until next time, keep adding to cartoon.
