Andy Miller: Whether you're taking the whole year off or just taking a night off, it's just about having options. We wanted to create fun work that meant we had to be having fun as well, not just thinking that we were creating something that someone else would like. And I think there's a really big difference between those two things. I think the commentary that is out there from us around CBD and even the changing perception of the role of other illicit drugs is really trying to highlight that the conversation needs to change.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to Add to Cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that Express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Here's your host, Bushy.
Nathan Bush: Welcome to another episode of Add to Cart. I'm Bushie and I'm joining you from the land of the Turrbal people, otherwise known as Brisbane, Australia on Add to Cart. We we welcome everyone to share and listen to e commerce stories. The more diverse the better. I want to especially welcome the traditional owners and the original storytellers of the land that we are on, our indigenous and Torres Strait Islander listeners to join us in our e commerce conversations and our community. What's worse than a vegan who tells you that they're vegan at every opportunity? Someone who stopped drinking for a little while and act like they discovered the
[Voiceover]: key to unlock eternal life?
Nathan Bush: Well, that's me at the start of this episode and I do apologize for it. But I was really excited about today's guest. Not only that they have a delicious product, but they've created a phenomenal brand in a really short amount of time. Andy Miller is the co founder and CEO of Heaps Normal, the alcohol free brewing company launched during COVID Andy, armed with his extensive background in the beer industry and four mates with complementary skills, set about creating an alcohol free beer that tasted like the real thing. And to say he succeeded is an understatement. Last year Heaps Normal was valued at $63 million and now accounts for roughly 40% of all growth in the non alcoholic beer category. Not bad for a Covid baby. In this chat, Andy tells us why bringing fun to work is more than just a brand identity. He gives his thoughts on pricing and maintaining a premium price and he shares why he believes the conversation around cannabis or other illicit needs to change. Now, before we get into today's episode, I want to introduce all of the Add to Cart partners that we have now confirmed and you are going to hear from in 2024. I'm so excited to have this collection of support because not only do they have industry leading solutions? But I have personally worked with or spoken with their clients who have nothing but good things to say about them. So Introducing our two Gold Partners. First is Shopify. You may have heard of them, they are undoubtedly the biggest name in E commerce. I'm so thankful to have Shopify support since day one of Add to Cart. Not only are they the default for many starting e commerce stores, they're helping leading retailers such as jb, hi Fi Age and industry. Joining Shopify as a Gold Partner for the first time is Deliver In Person. Deliver In Person are an Australian founded business who are transforming on demand delivery for clients such as July and the Party People and Samsonite. I've spoken to several of their clients and the feedback is exceptional. I can't wait to introduce you to more Deliver In Person stories throughout the year. Then we have five Silver Partners who you'll meet over the coming weeks. In our checkout episodes we have impact.com who are long term friend of the show and are a technology that helps brands connect and manage affiliates, publishers and influencers. We have Farsight, one of my hometown heroes. Farsight is a performance marketing agency with real relationships at the core of everything that they do in performance. Then we have the team at Convert Digital. Lots of clever cookies here when it comes to website development and ux. They have offices in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. We also have a Masters who are on a mission to give power to marketers with the Emasters platform which delivers one on one personalized experiences via email, SMS, web and more. And lastly, introducing TikTok. This is the last piece of our partnership puzzle and I'm so excited to welcome TikTok into the add to Cart community. They need no intro and I'm excited to hear all the new e commerce functionality that they have coming up this year. So that's the amazing crew covering all areas of E commerce. I'm excited to have them all on board and to leverage their expertise and some of their networks for some amazing guests to bring you even more e commerce insights throughout the year. But let's get into today's episode and thanks to our partners Shopify. Plus here's our conversation with Andy Miller, Co Founder and CEO of Heaps Normal. Andy, thanks for joining us on Add to cart.
Andy Miller: That's a pleasure Nathan, thanks for having me.
[Voiceover]: Oh I'm so excited because I think you saved my ass last year. I did the majority of the year off the grog and heaps. Normal was my go to and I didn't feel like I was missing out the whole time. So I've got you to thank. Thank you for not making me a social pleb last year.
Andy Miller: Thanks, mate, that's so nice to hear. Yeah, glad to have played a small part. But what an epic. What an epic result for you to be able to do the whole year.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, it was awesome. I got to about November and then I was like, okay, I'll have a
Nathan Bush: little now and again.
[Voiceover]: But even then, drinking totally changes, right after that long. Your habits and your mindset around drinking after going without for that long changes everything. So I can imagine you get these stories all the time.
Andy Miller: Yeah, we do get a lot of these sort of stories. And for us it's really whether you're taking the whole year off or just taking a night off, it's just about having options. I think that's what our minds were open to in starting Heaps Normal is. It's not really about saying that alcohol is the problem. It's really just about creating another option and seeing what works for you, what you can do with those additional options of which now there are heaps of.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. Oh, when you started it was such a novelty, right, to have non alcoholic beer. Obviously it existed overseas, but in Australia it was still relatively new. How did you know there was going to be a market for it?
Andy Miller: It was really new when we started. We weren't the first by any stretch. And non alcoholic beer was nothing new at all. It had been around for decades, but I think the majority of people, when they thought of non alcoholic beer, thought of something pretty watery and tasteless, not something that they would enjoy taking to a party or substituting for their favorite alcoholic beer. And yeah, we did see a lot of really interesting trends overseas and even places like Germany, for example, it's been a staple over there for so long, actually decent tasting non alcoholic beer. So we knew that it wasn't just a passing fat bad. And we saw in Australia here that in ourselves it was something that we were looking for. And more broadly there was clearly more demand for this kind of product than there was supply at that time. And that to us said there was an opportunity. But it really wasn't strictly a business decision for us. When we did it, we and we started Heaps Normal because we were scratching our own itch.
[Voiceover]: And what was the itch?
Andy Miller: The itch was different for all four of us when we started, but there was this common ground around wanting to change our relationship with alcohol. Personally, I've never felt like I had a problem with alcohol, but it was something That I just felt like was becoming a habit. And rather than the best drinking occasions that I can remember of where it's sort of been part of the mix but not the main event, it was just becoming this thing where at five o' clock you go down the pub, have a drink, not have heaps, but just have a drink. And it just became this habit, the habit of a knockoff, which sometimes is great, but when it's every day or when you're not really kind of doing it consciously, I think that's for me personally, when I thought, oh, maybe there's other stuff that I need to bring back into the mix here as well.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. And so when you approached bringing a non alcoholic beer into the market, was
Nathan Bush: your angle that you had to create
[Voiceover]: something that had a taste that was comparable to, to the beer that we've known and loved 100%.
Andy Miller: One of the early measures for us was that we had to genuinely feel like we could have a few of them and enjoy it, not be pretending, you know, convincing ourselves that we were enjoying this sort of poor substitute for what we really wanted. And there were a couple of beers out at the time that we enjoyed, non alcoholic beers that we thought were, were reasonably good. But even a few of those, we would notice that after one that was pretty much the cap, you have one and on the second one you're sitting there thinking, oh, it's got a bit of a weird taste or I don't, you know, don't, don't really, I'm not really enjoying this. So that was one of the goals. The product had to be 100% great. And for us, in our opinion. And we went out and we tested that on people really early on. We gave it to people whose opinions we really respected, like bartenders and other brewers and sommeliers, even a few musicians, people that were really serious about their beer and really liked it, not serious about their beer, but yeah, like love their beer. And I'd say nine out of those out of 10 people did not pick that it was nonalcoholic. We just gave it to them and said, hey, here's a new beer, it's an xpa. What do you reckon? And most of them said, yeah, look, it's really, it's really delicious. And we said, what percentage alcohol would you think it was? And nine out of 10 of them said between 3 and 4%. So that was when we knew that we were onto something. One, it was delicious. Two, it was imperceptible from alcoholic beer and it sort of essentially was sitting in amongst that mid strength market which has become extremely popular over the last couple of decades. So we knew people weren't opposed to drinking mid strength, so maybe they wouldn't be opposed to drinking a non alk every now and again.
[Voiceover]: Who was better at picking whether it was alcoholic or non alcoholic? The sommeliers or the musos?
Andy Miller: It's a good question. I reckon the Muses probably had them. It would have been close. But yeah, all that training and to be fooled by a non alk beer. It was satisfying.
[Voiceover]: That's awesome.
Nathan Bush: Shopify have put together their version of the Australian e commerce avengers. 10 e commerce experts including me. Unfortunately I think I'm the Hawkeye of the group to give you tips on how to set yourself up for success this year. You'll even recognize some of the contributors from past Add to cart episodes. Mark Bartzer, Kelly Slessor, Paul Waddy, Lisa Jones and more will share tips from how to create great discounts, how to boost conversion rates, optimize email and sms, even use AI to drive sales. It's all in there. I share how to set up your team for success. I can guarantee you will take at least two to three tips that you can use to optimize your sales this peak season. So put on your Spandex and join the e Commerce Avengers with Shopify's free Peak Season Playbook. Download it at shopify.com/guides forward/peaksalesseason2023 or just follow the links in the episode show notes from the device you're on. When you were coming up with, you
[Voiceover]: know, you said all four of you had that desire to create something that you could sit on and that was a good substitute for what you were used to or what gave you the confidence. Like you said, there had been non alks in the market for decades. What gave you guys the confidence that you could create something that was totally different to what had been out there and the perception that had been created around non alcoholic beer?
Andy Miller: Yeah, great question. For us, the product was a big part of it and so I'll tackle that. First. It was about believing, we believe that no one else had really had the incentive to solve this problem. Most alcohol companies and only the big ones were really looking at no craft brewers were even considering non alcoholic beer. And so there was no real incentive for these very large alcohol companies to put any kind of love into developing a non alcoholic substitute that was going to take away people in probably the way they saw it, take people away from their cash cow. So that's the big one. And I called up Benny, who was a friend of mine before Heaps Normal, and we'd worked together at some craft breweries in the past, and I just asked him, I said, hey, do you reckon you can write a recipe that is actually a. Is non alcoholic and still tastes good? And he was the only brewer, I reckon, that we'd spoken to at that time who went, oh, yeah, it's probably possible he still saw the massive challenge in achieving that, but he responded differently to a lot of other brewers at the time who I think would have just said, what's the point? Maybe, but why would you even bother trying to solve that problem? I think he immediately saw the reason for solving that problem. And he happens to also be an exceptional, exceptionally skilled brewer. So, you know, that sort of obviously helped in us achieving that. But the other part of it, just briefly, which I'm sure we'll go into further, is brand. I think having a great product is only. It's only part of it, it's only half the battle. And for us, it was so important that we put the energy into the brand and the values behind that brand and how we wanted to position ourselves within the conversation that was already happening around Non Alk Alk and even beyond that, these outdated norms that we all just take for granted, that was the starting point in forming this brand. And the overarching goal for us was to have a lot of fun doing it. We didn't want to be playing in this sort of earnest space that we saw a lot of other non alks playing in. And I think there's definitely a role for that, but we wanted to play a different role. So, yeah, that's where Peeps Normal was born. It's very tongue in cheek and really all about us having as much fun as everyone else.
[Voiceover]: You've done an incredible job there, because I was so fascinated when I was researching before our chat, and to discover that you've only started in 2020, for me, it feels like you've been a household name for so much longer. And I think, you know, by having your fundamentals all in place around what you stand for, where you play, how you play, has really helped you maximize that and almost become part of the vocabulary when you start talking about the non elk space. Was all of that intentional from the start?
Andy Miller: I mean, that feels like a potentially loaded question. I think we definitely was definitely a combination of a lot of thought, a lot of planning, some really great timing and a little bit of luck. I think obviously there's A school of thought that we subscribe to that you do make your own luck. But I think sometimes even the best laid plans don't really pan out. We've been very fortunate and the traction that we have had over the last few years is a credit to the people around us. I don't just say that for the sake of it. I genuinely. Then I'm talking about our investors who are all athletes, former founders, people that have built some of our favorite businesses and brands in the country who have been there and done that and been incredibly supportive in the journey that we've been on to build Heaps Normal. We've got the most incredible mix of people in our team at the moment and that just makes all the difference in terms of our ability to execute.
[Voiceover]: It's a really good point that you make in there around investors because obviously you raise money along the way. But what stood out for me is how your investors almost become spokespeople for the brand. I came across Nick Crocker from Blackbird spruiking you. You know, I've known Nick for a long time, but then also people like Ted Richards from the Swans investing, but then also like talking, the way they talk about you isn't from a go buy this beer.
Nathan Bush: You know, it's going to be the next big thing.
[Voiceover]: It's a. This has improved my lifestyle. I really think, you know, it's more of a personal story that they tell rather than a business story. Is there anything that you do with investors as they come on board to help them tell your story in the way that you want them to tell the story?
Andy Miller: There's no specific sort of indoctrination process. So we go through with investors. But. But what we did do from, from day one was make sure that it was really clear. We were really clear. And the people that we were talking to about investment were also really clear that we were looking for strategic investment. We weren't just out there looking for a check or electronic transfer. Checks don't really kind of happen much these days. But we didn't want people on board just for the returns. We wanted people who were personally invested in the journey. And I think that's why you see people like Ted and Nick out there and lots of others. Kate Morris, I won't try and name them all. Jad and Comerford and Matt Allen, a really long list of people who are out there talking about Heaps Normal from their own personal experience and the movement and the journey and whatever you want to refer to it as that they've been on, not just the kind of business that they've invested in.
[Voiceover]: It all comes together in such a beautiful story. And I think what you do, as you alluded to earlier, was. Is great storytelling. So I could imagine that would be easy to go down almost the martyr or the educating route when you are so new to the market. You know, you are leading the category of non alco. So it would be easy for you to be almost the spokesperson for the industry trying to educate. But you don't do it. You do it with fun. And that's what I noticed most recently too. Like some of your campaigns around just say no to water or the campaign to partition for a half day off with your boss. There's some really fun activations there. How do you elicit that kind of thinking and culture from the team?
Andy Miller: Early on, we referred to it as fun. You know, we wanted to have fun. We wanted to create fun work. And we talked about the fact that that meant we had to be having fun as well. We had to genuinely be excited about producing the work that we were putting out there, not just thinking that we were creating something that someone else would like. And I think there's a really big difference between those two things. And more recently, I think we've reflected on the term fun and how we were describing it and actually realized that a big part of the process for heaps normal and what I think makes our work different is bringing an element of play into everything that we do. And I think that articulating it in that way makes it more deliberate and more of an active process rather than this outcome, which is the outcome is fun. I think what we're putting into it is play. And what we're bringing is this playful approach. And that's something that is very easy to say. I think any of your listeners who have got small businesses like ours, I think will richly understand that. Yeah, it's really easy to say, yeah, let's make everything fun and playful, but at the end of the day, you've still got to make some really tough decisions and. And you've got to make sure that people are performing, that the numbers are going in the right direction. You're keeping the lights on. And it's really difficult to be playful when you're going through a really stressful time or making some really tough decisions. But it's always there. It's sort of baked into the heapsimal values and the kind of business that we've all said we want to be. So in those moments of high pressure or that are a bit more stressful. It makes it easy for us to come back to that and to just remind ourselves and our team.
[Voiceover]: So, as you alluded to, values of fun and play are great to hold onto. But has there been a moment or a time that you can recall where you've wanted to lead with a message that might be more straightforward or more to the point or more salesy, but you've had to stop yourself to go, no. Everything we've done is embedded in play and fun 100%.
Andy Miller: There's been quite a few of these moments, but one that sticks in the mind is early on we ran a campaign for July, which is a big month for non alcoholic beer, traditionally speaking, and certainly was the same for us. And there's obviously a natural inclination to. To put a lot of focus on that month. It's a big month where for consumers, every other month of the year the assumption is every other month of the year is drinking month. And then you've got July, maybe February or October, depending on which one you subscribe to most where the non al business has got their time in the sun. So I think there's this really strong pull to try and go out there and say buy heaps normal. This is the month, take the month off, give it all up and just drink non elk because it's going to be so much better for you. And in that moment we just sort of stepped back and went, that's not really the message that we want to put out there. One, two. I think we can have a bit more fun with this and be a bit more real about it. And we. It came from this insight that a lot of people in our community with the best intentions set out to take a month off for July or whatever. In this case, take a month off for July. And they'd set these big for some people, unrealistic expectations and put this pressure on themselves to not have any alcohol whatsoever for the entire month and then end up having a massive blowout come August 1st, which we thought was just totally counterintuitive, or you get halfway through the month and you have one drink for someone's birthday or wedding or something. You decide that there's a moment where you want to have a drink and then feeling really shit about not sticking to your promise to yourself. And we just thought that that was so counterintuitive to changing drinking culture and that we wanted to recognize that and give people permission to, as we put it, just do your best. So for July we said, hey, look, it's just A normal July. And we reckon you should just do your best. So if that means, you know, having one less beer than you normally do, that's do that, you know, like make some sustainable changes that you can continue on and that you want to continue after July finishes. As our mate Nick Cody put it, when we put the idea to him for feedback, he said, yeah, I get it. It's not really like you go out, you put sun cream on for every day of summer and then on the last day of summer you just go out and get absolutely fried. Doesn't seem to make much sense. So yeah, I reckon there's something in that. I totally get it. So that was kind of. Yeah. Told us we're in the ballpark, especially when people like Nick can have a bit of fun with it.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, that's cool. And I love that. And I think from a retail perspective it makes a lot of sense where you look at the traditional period. So for you, dry July could have been an easy path for you to go hard on the, you know, acquire new customers, sell lots of heaps normal. But you're like, actually this isn't sustainable long term. We're trying to take people on a journey with us and I think for, for us in retail as well, it's like Black Friday. You don't actually have to go out there with the biggest bargains or the biggest sales. It's like, what's the other roles that you can play in this conversation that's more aligned to you and your brand?
Andy Miller: Yeah, for sure. We actually, we did a Brown Friday this year with our coffee stout limited release. Yeah, that was probably another example where, I mean, it was just an opportunity to have a bit of fun and do something. Even if it's subtle, you know, it's still, I guess it was still a, you know, Black Friday promotion in some respects, but doing it in our own way and, and having a. Doing it a bit, a bit tongue in cheek.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. How do you manage demand? Because obviously very different to the traditional beer market, which is based on volume. You know, people having sessions of beer, you can go, you can kind of rack up the demand pretty quickly. Yours is more of a considered product. I'm assuming a session on heaps normal probably might be three or four beers.
Nathan Bush: I don't know.
[Voiceover]: Keen to hear from you. But obviously lower volume than the traditional alcohol market. How do you approach that from a volume perspective and a sales perspective?
Andy Miller: Yeah, look, I think the challenge is that non alcoholic beer isn't very widespread on tap, which I think is. Is Where a lot of beer volume comes from, particularly on premise, obviously it retails a different story and E Com again but I think actually people are in what we're seeing generationally drinkers are drinking a lot less alcohol and you're seeing that in the sort of year on year decline in the overall consumption of beer and alcohol and non alcoholic products in general and, and including beer and more specifically normal are continuing to grow. It's coming off a very low base. So yeah, the volumes are certainly not there. They're not comparable to alcohol, but there is volume there. And I think more importantly there's a shift in consumer habits that are driving the non alk category to very quickly become, you know, more sustainable.
[Voiceover]: So do you see it as not so much a volume game in that your customers may not be purchasing so frequently but you want to attract customers, give them a great experience from both a product and a brand perspective that you become the automatic go to for their non alcoholic drink of choice?
Andy Miller: Yeah, we do want to create a product that becomes synonymous with non alcoholic beer because it's a good quality product and because people can find personal relevance in the message that we're putting out there. I think and feel that we're a business that is giving back to the community and operating in a responsible way. All of those things I think contribute to that. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is a lot more, more energy that needs to be put into selling in non alcoholic beer and driving the sort of rate of sale for that product. So there's still a big awareness piece that comes with it. And also I think what you're getting to in terms of the volume, the critical mass of consumers consuming it frequently enough that it becomes comparable to alcoholic beer for a small business like us where we're really fortunate that we've been able to enter the market at the right time and be part of growing the category and the demand for non alcoholic beer which has meant that we're ranged nationally in it's now about 7,000 retailers and venues around Australia. That's a significant customer base for a business of our size that gives makes sure that the product is available in enough places that overall the volume that we're seeing is good. You know, it's really kind of, it's strong. It's strong enough for us to see a pathway to sustainability and kind of having a future in the industry.
[Voiceover]: And from an E commerce perspective, what role does the E commerce store play?
Nathan Bush: I can imagine.
[Voiceover]: You know, my assumption would be that your Customers try Heaps Normal for the first time at an event or off the shelf somewhere and then turn to you as their regular order online. Is that the path and the customer journey that you often see?
Andy Miller: Yeah, absolutely. The E Commerce Channel for us is really for our thousand true fans, the people that want to have that direct engagement with us because we have built the wholesale business first. That's been the priority for us and that will always be the case I think for Heaps Normal. Heaps Normal will always be wholesale first and so we need to think really carefully about how we differentiate the offering and how we craft that offering in the E. Com channel so that it's not just competing head to head or replicating the same kind of experience that people can get in other bricks and mortar retailers or even other e Comm retailers who are our customers as well.
Nathan Bush: Sorry, I'm interrupting this conversation because I have a message for any sales folk listening who are in E commerce services or tech. What if I told you that you could meet Australian e commerce decision makers in their car, follow them to the gym, even join some of them in the bathroom? Well, if you sponsor add to cart, you might be able to do that legally. We have sponsorships available for 2024 right now. Come join our industry leading partners such as shopify, impact.com convert digital and farsight in helping to bring amazing conversations, events and more to our e commerce community in 2024. Email me directly@nathanadecaart.com for the full 2024 prospectus. And in the meantime, don't get any ideas about bathrooms.
[Voiceover]: Because you've done a really good job at holding your price point. I think Heaps Normal is almost comparative to some craft beers on the market in terms of pricing. Has that become a challenge or has that been challenged as you have gone into some of those larger retailers like the major supermarkets?
Andy Miller: Yeah, Price point is a really challenging, challenging part of running the business in general. And I think probably a lot of small businesses can empathize with with this. The challenge with our product is that being non alcoholic, not having the alcohol in there which carries a lot of the aroma and flavor with it, it's a very efficient substance for carrying flavor. We have to utilize a lot more ingredients and expensive ingredients like hops to get the result that we've got and for that to be comparable to alcoholic products in flavor. So that's one part of it. I think a lot of people point to excise and non alcoholic beer not being subject to excise, which is true. But the bigger impact on price comes from the scale and the additional ingredients and the fact that beer, it's a scale game. So if you're a big brewer or if you're brewing millions and millions of liters of beer, then your cost base is going to be significantly less. There's a lot of also rebates out there for smaller brewers on excise. So it's a really complicated topic when you get into the sort of excise tax side of things. Park that one there. But the price point, I think for us on the one hand the consideration has been that we don't want to have a race to the bottom. We don't ever want to be pricing things. Having a pricing war with the big guys trying to match the price of Carlson zero or Heineken zero just feels like a race on the bottom and a fight that we're not going to win. But at the same time, we are really conscious of pricing our product competitively, understanding it's still at the premium end of the market. But a lot of that's driven by the same things that are affecting a lot of businesses, which is the increasing cost of ingredients over the last couple of years and just generally increasing overheads, which we've made the decision not to pass on on a few occasions. But it does create a lot of challenges and especially for us when the overarching goal is to create an accessible product, both from a flavor point of view, but also from a price point of view. So that's something that will continue to be top of mind for us.
[Voiceover]: And I could imagine that also puts pressure on you from a brand perspective to keep up that premium brand perspective as well, rather than be a kind of a standard middle of the range brand.
Andy Miller: Yeah, absolutely. There's a really interesting sort of balance point there, I think that is challenging to strike where between being a premium brand and also being sort of fun and accessible and yeah, we're not a luxury brand. We never want to be. We want to be inaccessible. I think mass premium is probably the marketing term for it.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, great. Tell me about the other areas that you are interested in going with that mindset of not having to rely on alcohol for social situations. Did I read right that you're interested in the CBD space as well?
Andy Miller: We're not specifically focused on any one avenue, one category outside of non alcoholic drinks. And I think the commentary that is out there from us around CBD and even the changing perception of the role of other illicit drugs is really trying to highlight that the conversation needs to change. And coming back to this idea of outdated norms where it's trying to illustrate this point that came up early in the conversation where alcohol's like, we're not saying don't drink alcohol, but we're also saying, hey, alcohol's not harmful. It's like a lot of these other substances. There's some pros and cons. Let's not be blind to the fact that there are inherent risks to any of these substances. And what we're calling for is an open conversation with the medical experts around what those benefits and costs are. And I don't think traditionally speaking, there has been an honest conversation driven by the medical experts on that broader conversation around different substances other than alcohol. So I think it's really exciting that that's starting to happen in a lot of places and we just want to encourage that, shine a light on it. Because as a dedicated non alcoholic beer company who will never ever produce alcohol, we feel like we're in a unique position to be able to, without any conflict of interest, say, hey, do what you want. You know, just think about it and make sure that you're getting out of it what you want to get out of it and not just following because you're following someone else's kind of bullshit version of what adds value to you as a person. So bit of a rant, but that's what we're out there talking about that for.
[Voiceover]: Because it's a fascinating social study from my perspective, because there hasn't been those big government campaigns or medical campaigns about cutting back on drinking yet. Like you said, we are seeing that inherent social change from the younger generations coming through in their actions. Not just what they're talking about or what they've been told or how they've been told to act. It's just happening. So it would be a fascinating study to see what happens over the next 10 years for those generations coming through.
Andy Miller: Yeah, 100% super interesting time.
[Voiceover]: So what's next? What's next for yourself and Heaps Normal? I didn't see a stout on the cards, so that one surprised me. What else is in the works?
Andy Miller: We've got a really fun project coming up in the next couple of months. Another limited release product, another limited release beer. And I can't give too much away at the moment, but I'll say that you'll be really bummed if you miss it.
[Voiceover]: Is there a hint in there?
Andy Miller: I like it.
[Voiceover]: I like it.
Andy Miller: It's actually going to be a product that is heavily focused on the E. Comm Channel, so it'll be exclusively available through E Com for the first few months. So yeah, watch this space. I think it'll be an interesting lean into E Com for Heaps Normal over the next few months.
[Voiceover]: Now you've got our attention. Big bloody tease that one. All right, Andy, if people are wanting to find out more about Heaps Normal, potentially even subscribe to the channel so they can stay across that E Comm development that you've got coming up and maybe get in touch with yourself, what's the best way to do.
Andy Miller: So, yeah, I think subscribe to our newsletter. We're putting a lot of, a lot of energy into developing content outside of the usual channels these days. Obviously we're on all of the normal social channels as well, but so take your pick to create your own normal. But yeah, if you want something a little bit special and to hear about stuff a little bit earlier than everyone else, jump on our email subscription list and we promise not to abuse the privilege.
[Voiceover]: Love it. Andy, thank you so much for joining us on Add to Cart. Love what you guys are doing from both product and brand. It's rare to see people get both so right and disrupt the norms of society. So congratulations on what you've achieved so far and thank you for joining us on Add to Cart.
Andy Miller: That's very kind. Thanks Nathan.
Nathan Bush: I know this will sound a bit wanky, but it was almost one of those times of don't meet your heroes when I was coming up to interview Andy because I love the Heaps Normal brand so much and I was hoping that Andy really personified the brand and everything they stand for. And I couldn't be more delighted to know that all that brand presence was coming from someone like Andy. You could tell that he really believed in it and it was coming from the core of what they are looking to achieve. Here are three key lessons that I took from that chat with Andy. Number one, blind taste test. Andy and his team took their beer to a range of high level professionals in the industry to see if it passed muster. All but one thought it was alcoholic. So that's a great lesson for all Challenger brands. Don't be afraid to put your products to the test in order to achieve the right standard and potentially a little marketing spin there like the Pepsi Coke Challenge. Number two, don't preach. Andy's attitude to his customers is one of respect. Heaps Normal don't exist to tell you not to drink alcohol, but to give you options. It's a really subtle but important difference and shows that Heaps Normal really respect their customers. Customers and Number three Embody your values. Many brands portray a playful brand identity, but for heaps normal it is baked into everything they do and who they are, whether that's advertised or not. Make sure your values of your brand
[Voiceover]: live through everything that you do, how
Nathan Bush: you act and your team. Thanks for joining us today on Add to Cart to listen to all our e commerce conversations. Now in the hundreds. You can head on over to add to cart.com there. You can also join up to our free private Slack community to share e commerce ideas, tips and questions with other listeners. You can also subscribe to the Add to Cart weekly newsletter and browse some of the video highlights from our chats. There is a lot there that's add to cart.com au and if I can ask you one thing before you go. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you share it with a friend or a colleague who could benefit or leave us a review. It really makes a difference. Thanks again for listening and until next time, keep those customers Adding to Cart.
