Jane Cay: We've gone from pushing the trolley down the main street to having, you know, a little van come and now the big truck comes. We load the parcels on twice a day. So, yeah, if you've got enough volume, they'll come to you. If I'm ever really stressed, the best place to go is a spreadsheet. It can definitely soothe me. I think what he really taught me as well was that while numbers are the language, people are at the heart of it.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to add to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Every week, Nathan Bush from E Suite and an e commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course, keep your customers adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Welcome back to another week in E commerce. Thank you so much for all the wonderful feedback on last week's episode with Erica Birchtold, the CEO of the Iconic. It was my dream to get Erica on board.
Nathan Bush: Like I said, I'd worked with Erica
Nathan Bush: and to have her here just talking all things the Iconic leadership and her personal life as well was really amazing. And the feedback I've got from you guys shows how much you appreciated it and how open Erica was, especially from a company like the Iconic. I mean, how often do you get an insight for a company like that that is so direct and so honest? So thank you very much, Erica. And look, as a reminder on our Instagram ADD to Cartshow, we actually give you a sneak preview in our stories of all the guests that we have coming up in the coming week. So if you ever want to ask questions of our upcoming guests like Erica, you can actually shoot me a voice DM through Instagram and I'll feature your questions to our guests. So what an awesome opportunity to ask your questions of the best minds in e commerce. Now, today's guest is someone that I've known for a long time and she was actually someone who probably took pity on me when I was first coming into the industry. I remember being at one of the conferences very early on and being at a big fancy dinner with where I didn't know anyone and I sat next to her and I think I spoke to her for about two hours where I heard all about her story and despite knowing pretty much everyone in the room and never felt like she was bored or distracted or wanted to talk to someone else, I was so enthralled in her story and I'm so happy
Nathan Bush: to bring it to you here and
Nathan Bush: for me to get a catch up on what life's been like since we've spoken and it's been a fair few years now. So. Jane Kay is the founder and the CEO of Bird's Nest, one of Australia's
Nathan Bush: biggest fashion success stories.
Nathan Bush: Leaving a job with IBM to adopt a small clothing business in regional New South Wales back in 2004, Jane has grown Bird's Nest to a staff of 150. She's serving a community of women with stole outfit inspiration, express delivery above and beyond customer service. No hassle returns all the things that
Nathan Bush: we should be doing.
Nathan Bush: In our chat, Jane shares the detail on the unique Bird's Nest will it suit me feature. I've never seen this done anywhere else,
Nathan Bush: so make sure you check it out.
Nathan Bush: She also shares the unusual place where she finds solace in times of stress and also some of the best business wisdom advice that you could know, courtesy of her old man. And I know Jane is adding to that book of quotes as we speak. What an awesome inspiration this episode is. So let's get straight into it. Thanks to our partners Shopify plus and Paclio. Here's our conversation with Jane Kay, founder and CEO of Bird's Nest.
Nathan Bush: Jane, welcome to add to cart.
Jane Cay: Oh, great to be here, Nathan.
Nathan Bush: Now Jane, we met many, many years ago at a retail event and I just absolutely loved your story. I reckon one day it's going to be turned into a movie of some sort of and I feel like you've told it a thousand times so I'm going to have my attempt at summarizing it.
Jane Cay: Oh please tell me if I've got it wrong.
Nathan Bush: So essentially this could go really badly actually. You're an IBM consultant, you met a country boy. You married your country boy, had a brief in the city and then moved back to country Kuma, bought a local fashion store and evolved it into a thriving online business. You now employ over 150 team members in a town of what, six and a half thousand people and are generating around $30 million a year, is that right?
Jane Cay: Oh, it sounds so simple when you say that's great. That was easy.
Nathan Bush: How long are we talking? What's the time span on that story?
Jane Cay: So I met that country boy, we got married in 2000. So. But yes, I've been in retail 18 years now. So both are long term relationships, both feel a bit the same. You know, you need a bit of counseling all the way through and there's ups, there's downs.
Nathan Bush: Amazing. And so on that story, is there any part of that that you've never told. Because you know, when you say it like that, you say it that quickly. 18 years and here we are, 150 teams, $30 million a year. Sounds easy, right?
Nathan Bush: But what is there any part of
Nathan Bush: that story that you've never told anyone?
Jane Cay: Oh, well, Nathan, I'm a bit of an open book, so probably not. Probably too open sometimes. I think, you know, what's interesting about this, or, well, just about life in general is there's just so many sliding door moments, aren't there, in terms of, you know, which way your life goes. And certainly I hadn't imagined I would end up in fashion or, you know. So I think one of those sliding door moments is moving back to the country. I really thought you needed a ticket. You know, I had this sort of city based skills that I thought, you know, once you move to the country, you needed to be an accountant, a nurse, you know, a teacher or. And so I was really planning on being a careers counselor. So I'd actually gone back to uni. I was working in a high school and it was the year I was working in a high school that we bought High Country Outfitters is what it was called then. And I ended up in retail. So the rest is history. But yeah, it could have gone. Could have looked very different.
Nathan Bush: Could have looked very different. What kind of advice would you have? Because obviously we've come through Covid. I try not to mention it too much because we've all lived it and we've had enough of it. But we've still got a lot of people who've gone. Well, actually maybe I don't have to live in a city anymore. I can go and live in the country. I can go live by the beach. I can go live where I want. What's the reality of it?
Jane Cay: Oh, the reality is actually we, we are the lucky ones. Honestly. We do have a lot of areas on our roof. Like, you know, now they're starling, so that's great. So connectivity can be an issue depending on how remote you go. But yeah, I really feel like we get to, you know, really live in this slow lane, live amongst nature and be two minutes from our kids schools or whatever and then also get to participate in whatever industry we want now. And you know, for us it's E commerce and that's just been just such an exciting space. We were lucky in Kuma, we're an hour from Canberra. We can tap into that postal network which is express across Australia. So that's been very important because when a Girl orders a dress today, she really wanted it yesterday. So there's some things that have worked for us in setting up this business in this location. And I think if you're looking at moving to a location and you've got a business in mind, you'd probably want to be checking out the infrastructure that you need to run that. Because, you know, potentially some of the infrastructure in the country is not, is not quite on the same playing field as our metro areas, but there's lots of other things where it just kicks it out of the park.
Nathan Bush: So it's really good to hear because you hear a lot of fashion retailers feel like they've got a setup within kind of a couple of hundred meters of an Australia Post primary distribution center. Nice. Hear there's options outside of that.
Jane Cay: Yeah, we've gone from pushing the trolley down the main street to having, you know, a little van come and now the big truck comes. We load the parcels on twice a day. So, yeah, if you've got enough volume, they'll come to you.
Nathan Bush: How good? Okay, so let's take it back a little bit. And your dad was an accountant. We mentioned there that you're an IBM consultant.
Nathan Bush: So you've, you've come from a world
Nathan Bush: of numbers and analysis. How does that translate into a love for fashion and customers to what Bird's Nest is today?
Jane Cay: I do love my numbers. If I'm ever really stressed, the best place to go is a spreadsheet. It can definitely soothe me. And yeah, it's interesting you talk about my dad. You know, obviously, you know, your parents are your first mentors in life, but he was also certainly my first mentor in business. And he built a management accounting firm specializing in agriculture, so benchmarking in the kind of cotton and wool and, you know, beef industries and things. So. So we've actually, he's just turned 80 and we've just self published this gorgeous book because he's got all these crazy sayings like, you know, great, like, you know, real dad things, but no, that, like, they really are quite wise. So we've called it like the Hundred Bush business wisdoms by McBoyce.
Nathan Bush: Do you have a favorite wisdom out of there?
Jane Cay: Oh, so many. But the book opens with, you know, if you're going to win the game, you got to keep the score. So. And you know, I think I was always going to study commerce. I always wanted to be in business. I grew up with business being discussed at the business at the breakfast table. I just thought that's what you did when you grew up and dad always said if you're going to study business, you have to study accounting because accounting is the language of business. And I think at the same time though, I think what he really taught me as well was that while numbers are the language, people are at the heart of it. And so an accountant with a heart, definitely. And I think when I look at the career that I've gone on to have and how that translates, I think I'm truly fascinated by both. I'm really fascinated by humans and human psychology and us all just trying to do the best we can. So I ended up in business and I think fashion again was another accident and we were really looking at the numbers of a whole lot of different businesses and we fell into this one that had been around for 20 years before I even bought it. Then it was really and truly on the shop floor that I fell in love with retail. Really understood this notion of retail therapy. And I think particularly for women and women's fat and fashion and clothing, it's a very vulnerable space for women. And so it was just, it was such an exciting space to make a difference and create a really safe and nurturing environment for women to come and experience fashion in. So yeah, then I fell in love with that. So it's been, yes, it starts with a love story, falling in love with the farmer. It's just constantly, you know, and that is, I think that you know, to be in business for that long, it's, you know, how do you grow a business and stay in love with it? I think that's, that's part of the challenge as well because it's been really been very much a long distance race for us rather than a sprint to a finish line that of selling the business or doing something else. It was really about building a community.
Nathan Bush: Ever scrolled through an E commerce packaging website for fun? Nah, me neither.
Nathan Bush: Until today.
Nathan Bush: Paclio is putting the joy into the pack packaging game. So let's play a game. I'll tell you the name of the Paclio product and you have to try and guess what kind of product they are. Fairy floss compostable mailer. Queen bee Honeycomb padded mailer.
Nathan Bush: Here we go.
Nathan Bush: Gummy shark water activated tape. Now if my jaded self thinks that this packaging is fun, imagine what your customers will think. Paclio is also also eco friendly Australian owned and operated with same day dispatch and 14 day returns. Now that's pure joy for everyone. Check out the Paclio range of E commerce packaging options@paclio.com that's Paclio P A C K L E O paclio.com
Nathan Bush: there's so much in there I want to unpack because I was writing questions there the whole way through, and I'm like, oh, there's so much there. But I think that thread around staying in love with your business is really key, given the evolution that you've had from buying this business in a rural town to turning it into what it is today and being a fashion powerhouse nationally. How do you differentiate Bird's Nest today in the market? Obviously, a lot more competitors than there were 18 years ago, and it's a very different world. How do you keep Bird's Nest relevant and unique?
Jane Cay: Well, it's interesting, actually. We recently did an exercise with the team because sometimes, I mean, there's always just a bucket list of things that you want to do and work on. And, like, you know, there's so many things coming out all the time and do we go down that direction or do we do this? And so just to get some clarity around that, I had someone say, look, read this book called the Advantage by Patrick Lencioni. And he's done lots of great stuff, like Five Dysfunctions of a Team. And I don't know if you've read that book. It's a fabulous book. And, yeah, he's got some great stuff. Anyway, the Advantage, it kind of helps you get clarity around. It asks six main questions, and the questions are, why do we exist? How do we behave? What do we do? How will we succeed? What's important? And then what's important right now? And I guess in terms of the question around, how will we succeed? This is the area where, like, what is the thing that differentiates you and is the thing that's going to make you thrive? And so, you know, as a team, because we sort of have all these things, you know, you have all the. Like, our birdsong has eight values in it. And, you know, and that. And this book kind of says no. Like, you really need to narrow it down to, like, three strategic anchors kind of thing. Like, it's hard to have more than that. But then when you're looking at anything that you should be doing, you're looking against those. So for us, it's about building community and particularly a very inclusive community. And that starts with our team. So, you know, first we care about each other, then we care about the people we serve and the world that we live in. So that's kind of our first pillar. Our second pillar is around being her wardrobe wingbird. So the women that come to us want that style support. So that's when we realized, yes, we're a product business. Yes. People ultimately are buying a dress and getting that right product is so important in the right sizes, in the right colors, in the right all that stuff. You know, I know you spoke with Michaela last week about ranging everything that's really important. But so much for us around what different gents us is how we bring that to market around, okay, that's a dress. But what shoes do I wear with that? And like, how do I accessorize that? And is this the right one for my shape? And you know, so how do I put it together an outfit? How do I put it together in a capsule so that I can make 10 different outfits with that? So, you know, that service that we put around our product and the way we curate it for her is our second pillar. And then our third pillar, you know, really is around delivering Rockstar. I mean, you've got to get the basics of E. Com right to start with. Your delivery has to be right, your returns needs to be right. All that stuff just has to be spot on. And then we have a mantra. If in doubt, be generous. So if we don't have a policy for it and you're not sure, then that's. That's what you go with. And yeah, people feel like they're really humans to us. So I think, yeah, like, yeah, I mean that's probably more information than you wanted. But like, I just. Because we have just been through that exercise recently and we measure what we going to do against that and say, is that going to make us better at our core game?
Nathan Bush: How good and how clear is that for the team? And you know, what you're delivering. That's fantastic. What was the name of the book again?
Jane Cay: Yeah, it's called the Advantage.
Nathan Bush: The Advantage. Great. Thank you. I love that if in doubt, be generous motto.
Jane Cay: Yes. That's another one of Dad's
Nathan Bush: delivering.
Jane Cay: He is amazing. I had to cut it down from over 100 to 100. I was like, we can't fit all these in.
Nathan Bush: Has there been a time in customer service that comes to mind where you're like, this is a bit different. But I've got to stick to if in doubt, be generous.
Jane Cay: Oh, look, the team are funny because, you know, they're protective as well as. Even though, you know, we've learned to love returns and really realize that's part of our, you know, that's the last touch point with a customer. So, you know, you make it a good one. You know, it's when they've got the concert tickets in the pocket and the, you know, and the team, Brigitte says, really Jane, really? Are we really going to take this back? And I'm like, well, why don't we, you know, like maybe we could ring and have it go house with them or like, you know, we just. You've kind of given yourself away with the tickets in the pocket.
Nathan Bush: But yeah, I can't imagine though, because with that first pillar being around community and genuinely caring and trying to create that community feel that you would have too many people taking or too many customers taking advantage of that generosity.
Jane Cay: So minuscule. So minuscule. Which is why you really don't have to worry about it. Like I just. And even with things like our 365 day returns policy and you know, things like that, people rarely like take that to the full extent because it's really only if they've forgotten about something, it's in the cupboard and they've got, oh my gosh, it's a year later and I haven't worn this, you know. But mostly people want to get their money back and go and buy what is their perfect match. So like in most cases you can afford to be generous.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I love that term that you said too about being your wardrobe wing Bird. It's so cool. And one of the things that stood out to me on your product pages was the Will it suit me feature. I hadn't seen it done like that or as well as I've seen on Bird's Nest. So well worth checking out if you, if you're having a listen, can you share with our audience who can't see it in front of them right now, what it is and the kind of feedback or interactions you get from your customers from that feature.
Jane Cay: Yeah, they love that, you know, and we find even if we tweak things just slightly, like we tweaked our model measurements the other day and oh no, no, no. They wanted that extra detail. So that feature is so every single product we have, there's the normal attributes that you'd expect for a dress. You know, like it's short sleeve or it's this length, it's got this neckline and we really take that to the nth degree so that you're. The filtering that you can do is like, is it breastfeeding friendly? Is it. You know, there's so many filters on our site that we had to get a special filtering. Like we generally break people's software if we can with the amount of data that we have. Around product we certainly broke our pim, but yeah. So the will this suit me is around, you know, what body shapes it suits, what occasions it's going to suit. If you're this personality, it's going to be a good fit for you. So people often use that as a guide but the thing that they use the most is when they can actually fill out a whole style profile on their profile and then we use all those attributes to match. So we have an algorithm that runs that matches and so you can actually go to your style matches and see within dresses or within tops. You know, bit like Dexter on that. You know, perfect match tells you how many heart scores you have for different items. So you can. That refreshes all the time and you can go and check out like your best matches at any time. Yeah. So I mean that's cool. The thing that actually broke the pin though was and they had to build a whole new ability to link it is when you're on our catalog pages you can actually change the view to be like the model size you like. Like you could say show me it on a 14 or show me it on a. Like just show me the product shot instead of on the model or. And that because PIMs are used to attributing things to a product, but attributing things to a model in an image of a product is like a whole like database. It breaks their minds to do that. And yeah, but we did it.
Nathan Bush: Did you have to build it?
Jane Cay: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Oh goodness.
Jane Cay: So we've we've recently about. Oh about two and a half. Oh no, no. Yeah. Two years ago we replatformed from a completely custom. Because of course when we built there was no such thing as Shopify or you know, there was no such thing as e commerce platforms when we built our site back in 2000, started building it in 2006.
Nathan Bush: Gotcha. And what off the shelf tools are most valuable to you in delivering that experience?
Jane Cay: Now we have a huge combination of things from. We've got Fred Hopper that does our filtering and our merchandising and our search and we have commissary in the background as our PM eCommerce is our front end and we have. Yeah, we have some amazing tools in the back end. Like you know, like as I said we're talking to Style Arcade. We're talking. We've got a great tool called styletics which does all our outfitting. We've also got all our own like our recommendations engine is still our own algorithm. So we still got plenty of software. We're maintaining that we've built ourselves.
Nathan Bush: But what I love about that is that your part that you've built yourself is directly related to one of your three pillars. Right. So you haven't gone out and build on the fringes of like your core offering. You've built right in the middle of your core offering.
Jane Cay: Yeah, and that's what we've maintained because of course at the beginning we built everything and now we're like, no, we build the stuff that differentiates us.
Nathan Bush: Makes a lot of sense. And I can imagine that you have now so much data. Sounds like a dirty word, but data on your customers, essentially their preferences and what they like and, you know, how they want to dress. Do you use any of that to. Apart from the what will I will it suit me Feature, do you use that to personalize the experience for them in any way?
Jane Cay: Oh, you look definitely. I mean, on the site, obviously, the curation and the matches, that's the ultimate curation for an individual. But then just understanding, I think it's been a huge part of how we've evolved as a business. Because if you think back to when we launched, we launched online as a retailer of other people's brands, we were a very traditional, you know, we launched online with Levi's Esprit Jag. I mean, and in that time, and this is the thing about E commerce, it disrupts industries, you know, so what was a wholesale brand then? Wholesale model then, you know, of course these brands wanted a direct relationship with the customer. They eventually launched their own E commerce site. So then you've gone from being customer to a customer and a competitor and you know, as you adapt and then all of a sudden what we learn about our customers and we couldn't necessarily buy the right product at the right time because we relied on our suppliers to be giving us. They love that black pant. Can we do it in white? No, we can't. You know, okay, so, yeah, so about nearly 10 years ago, we started developing our own product and we knew we needed something exclusive, you know, and we knew that more and more people were going online and we didn't want to have the same product that everybody else had. And our customer, we couldn't get the size inclusivity we wanted. You know, we now take our ranges from 8 to 24. So then we use that data to go look. Yes, you know, she's hitting that size curve all the time. Like, you know, we're selling 16 is one of our best selling sizes. And so many of our brands were only going to like a 14 or so. Then all of a sudden, you know, we knew to really bring to market what she wanted, we had to develop it ourselves. So now 50% of our sales are our own labels. We have a whole suite of birds for every occasion. So we have like Moonlight Bird for After Dark. We have Boho Bird for the Bohemian. We have, yeah, we have Natural for birds, all natural fibers. So yeah, so we've got a suite of birds that. And they've all been developed from understanding and looking at what she's asking us for and then developing product and you know, changing, you know, adapting the experience for her.
Nathan Bush: You haven't had to go back to like the 90s grunge birds or something like that, have you?
Jane Cay: No, but we've tried, honestly we, for a while when we first launched we had kids, men's and women. So we've gone, we've tried quite a few different types of retail. And you know, at the heart of it though, the customer is very different between those where you think, oh it's fashion, like we could just, you know, share coat hangers and blah blah, blah. And we had, you know, separate. But yeah, at the heart of it, the customer and what the experience that they're wanting out of it is very, very different.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And you mentioned that evolution from being a retailer of other brands to creating your own brand and designing your own products. You recently launched Rehatched which seems to be like the next evolution for you. How does that work?
Jane Cay: So re hatched is a collection of pre loved Bird's Nest pieces. So and contributed by our community. So it's our step into circular fashion and it's part of us, I guess, taking responsibility for the clothing that we bring into the world. I think, you know, everyone's starting to think about their wardrobes and clothing and just the world differently and thinking about how they consume and you know, obviously we see the growth numbers on Pre loved and we've got great product, great quality and what's new to someone, like what someone else is all of a sudden either grown out of or not just doesn't, you know, they only needed it for that one thing or you know, that the ability to share this collective wardrobe is pretty exciting. And yeah, our community is really responding so you know, we can't keep up with the getting it up. And yeah, the launch has been just very exciting which was this year. So now, yeah, we're able to offer lifetime returns. We've always had a crazy generous 365 day return policy and now we can Literally say lifetime returns policy with us. So you can obviously return your unworn pieces for a year for a full refund. And then once, once you've worn them, as long as they're in pretty good nick, then we will re home them. And so you get a credit for that or you can also donate to different causes that we support.
Nathan Bush: And what roughly what's the percentage of people who go for the credit first who donate?
Jane Cay: Most people go for the credit actually.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, nice thing to offer but I feel like from a customer perspective that.
Jane Cay: Yeah, well we ran a campaign around when the northern rivers was flooding. So yes, it definitely picked up when people really connected to the cause around. Oh gosh, I really want to help people out right now. I'm going to clean my wardrobe out and make a contribution to that.
Nathan Bush: Such a nice way for people to make a difference.
Nathan Bush: Did you come up with the rehashed idea?
Nathan Bush: Were there already communities kind of like the buy swap, sell, Bird's nest communities,
Jane Cay: Existing fantastic Buy swap sell community for business, like a closed Facebook group. And I guess, you know what we. I'm really so supportive of that and you know, really keen for that to keep going and be strong. Any anything that I think moves the product and gives it more life, you know, because ultimately, you know, if we can bring these clothes into the world and extend its life, then that's ideal. It's just what threshold you have for managing your own administration around that like so do you want to take a photo, do you want to put it up, do you want to deal with the logistics, you know, versus you've already got a very easy way to return it to us and we will, you know, manage all of that. So I think what we're trying to do is make it super easy for people because we know that we make more like we all want to be as environmentally conscious as we can. It's just that sometimes when it's hard, it's just it's harder. So when it's easy it's easier. So yeah, we're just trying to make that step easier. But you know, there's lots of options out there for people to re home and then they can choose what works for them.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, and obviously we've seen huge hype around the rehoming reuse market over 2021, 2022, with some brewing companies out there doing reuse fashion. Do you foresee that in 2023 as presumably wallets tighten, budgets get a bit harder? Do you feel like there'll be a financial hit that will make people seek these solutions out more.
Jane Cay: Oh look, I think that's inevitable. Australia is going to have, we're still going to feel it because we've got a lot of people still to come off their fixed home loans into variable and that's going to be a big shock to a lot of households. And so, you know, I think certainly in the first half of next year that there's going to be a lot of families feeling that. And yeah, it's definitely, I think its reputation has changed completely from when we were at uni. Well, no, I'm a lot older than you, Ben, when I was at uni and you know, you'd go to Vinnies for the dress up versus, you know, actually, you know, my children, that's pretty much how they shop. So, you know, there's no stigma. It's like I think definitely people will be tapping into that and I think what I love about the solution we've brought to market is that it can actually be quite overwhelming shopping in secondhand markets and the ability to be able to come onto a site, see really good images, be able to filter, to still have a first class experience, you know, of fast delivery and good returns and you know, because that's often why people don't engage in it because it's again, not a great shopping experience. So how can you make it a great shopping experience and how can you normalize it by having it sitting next to something new. So you've got like, okay, I'm going to buy new bra and a secondhand maxi dress, you know, so. And in our situation it's going through the one checkout so most retailers are separating it out.
Nathan Bush: That's special.
Jane Cay: It's going through the one checkout for us.
Nathan Bush: Was that difficult to do?
Jane Cay: Yep.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. People couldn't see your face when you said yep, but there was a little bit of fear in the eyes.
Jane Cay: Yeah, it always takes longer than you think. I mean we started this process in 2000. Obviously there was a few things that got in our way. But yeah, because it's, you know, just even the, the data model of like how do you rely, like how do you relate these, like are they children of the parent and you know, like all the stuff that we had to do in the PIMS to kind of recreate that but then not. You didn't want to duplicate all this content across everything. So yes, it was an interesting challenge and then also interesting to make sure they don't cannibalize each other in Google and all that sort of stuff.
Nathan Bush: So that's exciting. But then it's also opened up a whole bunch of other stuff. So, like you said, the Lifetime returns, which, again, is something totally unique. So you've got a fair few unique propositions there opening up once you start putting the pieces together. Right.
Jane Cay: We really do want to solve that wardrobe dilemma for her. And so looking into the future and how she's thinking about her wardrobe in the future, she is thinking about it quite differently. And it's a revolving thing. And so we're really trying to look to the future and say, who do we need to be to be her best partner in this, that she can rely on us? And, you know, because we really do. We really do hope that once she discovers us and that that is tends to be what happens. She discovers us, and then she does then tend to rely on us for all sorts of wardrobe dilemmas that we tend to face every day when we're women.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And that's what struck me, too. Is that from my rating, tell me if I've read this wrong, is that 70% of your revenue is from return customers. Now, that's an incredibly loyal customer base, right?
Jane Cay: Yeah. I'm almost scared to tell you that on any given day, that number is actually 85 at the moment. I think it's probably too high, but it's certainly something to celebrate that we have customers that do come back and back to us.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. That's incredible. Is it, like, obviously it's wrapped up in everything that you do, but is
Nathan Bush: there any, like, one little hack or
Nathan Bush: one little thing that you do that you go, this is a great way to engage our customers who have already shopped with us and keep them coming back.
Jane Cay: I truly believe it's all in the care factor. And retail is detail. There is no one little hack. You know, like, there is a billion hacks from knowing someone's name when they walk in the door, to the way we write the notes, know what they've bought before to, you know, like, down to the design and selecting the button. So they're going to be easy to open to having models that people can relate to that are in their body size. The ringing a customer if you think their order doesn't look right, maybe they accidentally ordered two of those things, you know, like, it's all those little things and those little interactions that you have with the customer and that. Yeah. So I think it's a. It's having high care factor across the business and that really, that starts with your team. So.
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Nathan Bush: It just reminded me of our conversation last week with Erica, CEO of the Iconic. And one of the things she revealed was that she reads personally every NPS comment that comes through.
Jane Cay: Wow. Yeah, so, yeah, that's. That's incredible. And that's for us. We've just moved from. We had a system where we had our NPS coming in just until we replatformed, actually. And we, yeah, we read every single comment and then distributed it. And the one question we asked is how could we improve? And that. It's just such an incredibly powerful question. And you really, you just, you hear. They just, it's so. Become so clear. The next thing that you need to focus on.
Nathan Bush: Has anything floored you from that question?
Jane Cay: No, but just so many good ideas. Like, just so many good ideas. I think now.
Nathan Bush: I love your approach to your team. You are so well known for having an amazing culture at Bird's Nest and even picked up awards around best place to work in Australia. Can you tell us about, you know, we talked before we got on here about your team is currently inside doing some mindfulness on a Wednesday morning. What are you doing to make the Bird's Nest workplace such an amazing place to work?
Jane Cay: It was an early learning and when we were growing very, very quickly and we were just hiring like crazy and, you know, I, there was just a realization pretty early on that my, my actual day job didn't matter that much anymore. Like my core purpose was, or my core responsibility was to champion a really amazing culture. So I then ultimately nurtured the soil in which, you know, this business and all the people in it were going to grow. So, you know, just so much truth to that culture, eat, strategy for breakfast stuff, you know, we're a team. We're a team with less than 10% of our team have a tertiary education, you know. Yet as you say, we've won awards not only for our business culture, but Also for innovation and, you know, customer service and in a pretty hefty playing field. So that comes from high care factor. And that comes from. That starts with your team. And I think, you know, as we grew, we didn't have, of course, we didn't have an HR department or anything for a long time. Like, we don't even call it that now. It's the people team. But the first person that came along with a bit of a psychology degree and, you know, a definite love of people, I was like, okay, I think I'm. I think you're going to be head of trust. I think that's what it's about. I think it's. It's all about, you know, trust. And that comes from vulnerability and making sure, you know, like, we're not going to get it perfect every time, but we're going to lean into it and ultimately we're going to put people before task, People before task. So. And then, you know, once you build that community, you end up stopping having to do anything because. Not anything, but.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's weird that you're doing this
Nathan Bush: with a cocktail on the beach.
Nathan Bush: Like, it's weird that you do an
Jane Cay: interview like this, just have a holiday then, because everyone just looks after each other and that is what happens, you know, because life is like, it's hard sometimes and, you know, when you're in the privileged position of that, I mean, to know and have these 150 humans, you, you know about their lives and when things go wrong and things go wrong all the time and, you know, people are really dealing with a lot in their lives and then also coming to work and trying to give their best and if it's a safe and nurturing place to come into, then that's just such a solid ground for many people and for each other. Like, it's just. Yeah. So why wouldn't you want a good place to come into work? I think it's absolutely. It's been worthwhile for me as well.
Nathan Bush: Well, you kind of create the workplace
Nathan Bush: that you want to work in, right?
Jane Cay: Yes, exactly.
Nathan Bush: Two key words that you use in there that hit home for me was safety and trust, not their core feelings or core beliefs for humans. Not easy to tap into, especially in a workplace environment. Have you had any learnings that have helped you get that trust and that feeling of safety within your team? Anything that you've done? You think that's a little bit different?
Jane Cay: Oh, look, I think a little bit like the question around how you build loyalty with. With. It's like you Know, Brene talks about the marble jar, you know, of trust, you know, you, you. It's a whole lot of little marbles that you put in. So it's, you know, it's about how you do and because you're not always going to do things perfectly. And I think, you know, sometimes it's about the reflection of, you know what. Perhaps we could have handled that differently. I think one of the things that has really helped us is part of our induction is a mind. Everyone goes through a mindfulness training, which is actually a really good combination of learning how your brain works and as well as, you know, the ancient wisdoms around being still and breath. So, you know, and it brings a whole new language to the team. And if a team member comes in and I mean, I, I can't believe I only learned about how my brain worked in my 30s, mid-30s. Someone taught me and I actually learned that I actually, yeah, I couldn't be a nice human and be stressed at the same time like that. I actually, that was not compatible. And I thought being busy and stressed was just like my Persona. But actually, yeah, so, so interesting. And I think the compassion that comes with understanding our humanness and what can happen to us when we're hijacked either in drive state or, you know, or in stress, and then how we can then potentially behave with other humans. And so if you can develop that self compassion for yourself when that stuff goes wrong, catch it more often, and then you can extend that compassion to others so that if in doubt, be generous thing for us also extends to having the most generous interpretation of what's going on for someone else and how they're behaving. And I think that's something we talk about a lot. And I think there's a lot of compassion in the business. And that starts with really giving people the chance to be forgiving to themselves when they stuff up. So I think that that has helped us.
Nathan Bush: That's so nice. I love that. And I could imagine though that as a founder of this business and responsible for 150 team members as well as family, farm, everything else that goes onto it, Stress, no matter. You could be Gandhi and you would still be stressed at times, right? How do you catch your yourself in the moment and then how do you take yourself to a space where you can step out of that stress zone into being the person that you want to be? Do you have any techniques or any ways to catch yourself in that moment?
Jane Cay: Oh, yeah, look, I think as a team, we've also learned that, you know, Something's not working. And if we're in a meeting and the energy is not right or, you know, that you actually just. You need to take a break, there's no point leaning into something when it's just not working. So that the permission to say, let's circle back to this. You know, let's leave this now and circle back. Or just catching yourself earlier where you're like, okay, like, I'm not fit for human consumption right now. I do need to back away.
Nathan Bush: I need that on a shirt.
Jane Cay: Yeah, you need a T shirt with that then. Apart from that, I think, you know, sometimes a problem can just feel so big or, you know, and quite often for me, it's just like, sleep has been the biggest learning, you know, and that was something I totally neglected in my 20s and 30s. And so, you know, now realizing how important that is before any kind of meditation or yoga or just the plain old sleep helps your brain recover and all of a sudden, you know, develop new perspectives. And so, yeah, sleep's my biggest hack now. Optimal sleep hours, I like to get seven.
Nathan Bush: Seven. Okay, cool.
Jane Cay: So I can. That's ideal.
Nathan Bush: Yep. Okay, cool. 7. And we know we're on. We're on for a good day.
Jane Cay: Oh, well, that's me. Like, you have to listen to your body, Nathan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: I like it. I like it. Jane, you shared so much today, and it's been just amazing to touch base again and hear what's been happening at Bird's Nest, both from an E commerce perspective, but also from a people and personal viewpoint as well. It's. I always get so much out of our chat, so thank you so much.
Jane Cay: Oh, thanks so much for having me.
Nathan Bush: What's on your radar for 2023? What's. What's big for yourself and the Bird's nest team?
Jane Cay: So 2022 was all around sustainability and our impact. And, you know, so we've had. We've really taken some big strides there. One of which was. Was rehashed and that, you know, we always talk about the fact we've got a flight, if you like, a flight plan, a flight report, a flight path that we, you know, there's all these operating KPIs and things that you need to always have your eye on. You know, you guys talk about it all the time, you know, on this podcast. These are the things that you need to be watching at all times. And if any of them, if you're flying a plane and any of them are like, going off the rig to scale, you need to you need to focus on those. So while at the moment, you know, everything's pretty steady, so we're gonna. This 2023 is all around getting to back to the basics of being the best damn wardrobe wingbird we can be so personalizing that journey for her from beginning to end. And so that's our. There's a lot of elements to that, but, you know, upping our game in loyalty, product recommendations and looking at our comms platform, they're the things that we're really focusing on. Focused on for 2023.
Nathan Bush: Oh, that's brilliant. I hope anyone who is just considering a loyalty point system as their solution for loyalty is listening to this episode and taking your marble analogy. That's the approach for loyalty. It's brilliant. All right, Jane, how can. If people have heard this today and gone. I love what you're talking about and I'm sure they will. What's the best way for them to keep up with what you're doing and get in touch?
Jane Cay: Yeah, well, Definitely. I'm on LinkedIn, so you're welcome to contact me there. You can also come and visit. We now have nest. We have this beautiful accommodation and we're actually thinking that E Commerce Tours could be one of them because we people love coming and touring our business and we're pretty generous with sharing information. So, yeah, you can come and stay and visit and tour.
Nathan Bush: That's amazing.
Nathan Bush: So what is it?
Nathan Bush: Its own little accommodation hub set up?
Jane Cay: Yeah. So it's only. It's about. It's just across the road. It's in the beautiful Lambie street, which is the most sort of historic street. It's our old main street of Cooma that's no longer now residential. These two heritage terraces that we've lovingly restored with lots of mod cons. It's very luck. So it's like definitely retreaty. And yes, we'll host and spoil you and yeah, you can come and enjoy our one and only store and beautiful lounge, private shopping experience that we've created. And so, yeah, we're doing lots in the offline space as well, which is quite fun.
Nathan Bush: That's very cool. I could imagine if there are a few E Commerce teams looking for a little bit of a retreat or a getaway.
Jane Cay: They could do their Patrick Lanzoni the Advantage and ask their six questions while they're there.
Nathan Bush: Oh, look, it won't be a holiday. You are coming here to work.
Jane Cay: Yes. Focus, clarity.
Nathan Bush: Jane, thank you so much for joining us on Add to Cart.
Jane Cay: Pleasure.
Nathan Bush: We're going to get to some lessons from that episode, but can I just stop there and just say how good does Jane leave you feeling as a person and as someone to look up to in leadership? I think Jane is just such a great example of someone who is calm, caring and passionate about what she does and is so successful in doing it. And it's just an inspiration to me. I love what Jane does and her outlook on life and it's the same. Whenever I speak to Jane, I always feel that sense of connection and it's the way that she makes people feel. And I can only imagine the respect and the admiration that her team have her if that's the way that she
Nathan Bush: treats idiots like me who are talking
Nathan Bush: to her for an hour. So it's always great to catch up with Jane. Here are the three lessons that I want to highlight from the conversation. Number one if in doubt, be generous with customer service. It's not a new concept and you've probably heard this concept before, but demonstrating it is much harder than saying it. Jane has made sure that her team is not only allowed to be generous with customers, she expects it. It is part of their DNA. It is just the Bird's Nest way and it's paid off with loyal customers. Remember, she's got 70% return visitors and they respect the Bird's Nest way and don't take the piss. Default to a generous mindset with your customers and expect it from your team. Number two, Keep your focus contained. It is so much harder to limit your focus than to expand it. Anyone, anyone I've seen it before can write a 100 page strategy document. Not many can write a three sentence one. For Jane and the Bird's Nest team they have three focus areas. Community wing birds and getting the basics right. The the team know exactly what these mean. Can you get that succinct number three Numbers are the language. People are the heart. I wrote this quote down as I was chatting to Jane. I just loved it. Being in the people business. I just love hearing founders and leaders speak like this. We all know that we need to
Nathan Bush: be across the numbers.
Nathan Bush: That's a given. But the numbers only work if our people are happy. They are the heart. And I loved Jane's journey over time. You know, former IBM, a person who loves numbers. She has had to adapt and mold her style to focus on people and it's often at the expense of getting stuff done or making the numbers work in the short term. And as you can see, it's paid off with a brilliant team and a
Nathan Bush: beautiful business that's flourished over many, many years.
Nathan Bush: To get the highlights of today's episode, head on over to add to cart.com and sign up for our free newsletter each Tuesday. We will send Monday's episode summary links and discount codes for you to go next level on. And if you're looking to explore your next e commerce opportunity, come and Visit us at eSweet. We're a dedicated e commerce talent agency connecting the best e commerce talent with the fastest growing brands in Australia. Head on over to esweettalent.com where you can download the free e Commerce Salary Guide and sign up to our weekly e Commerce job emails. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those customers adding to Cart.
