Alex Babbage: Best thing you can do if you're starting your business is get your product out there, get feedback and then make it better.
Danny Atkins: We just crossed over half a million followers or we're now heading maybe towards 600,000, which is incredible.
Alex Babbage: I say it's like a Terminator. It never sleeps, it never stops. It will hunt you until you're done.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to ADD to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Every week, Nathan Busch from E Suite and an e commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course, keep your customers adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello and welcome to ADD to cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and director at e commerce talent agency E Suite. Today's guests are professional sales sun chasers. Inspired by the four hour workweek, they created a business that helped them follow that summer feeling throughout the whole year. What a dream. Today they turn over more than $20 million worth of bikinis annually. Danny Atkins and Alex Babbage are the married founders of Kulani Kinis, a swimwear label inspired by the Hawaiian life, summer and a love of color. And they are taking the world by storm. And not only are they selling over $20 million worth of bikinis with their team of 40, they are selling 80% of their product outside of Australia. In this delightfully honest and very real episode, Danny and Alex talk us through the inspiration to create a new swimwear label as a side hustle and how they left their previous careers as a psychologist and a corporate accountant. We also discuss why they don't pay influencers to despite their 600,000 Instagram followers. And we get their tips for surviving burnout in a very busy e commerce world.
Nathan Bush: Hint you have to work more than four hours.
Nathan Bush: So, thanks to our partners Shopify plus and Paclio, here's our conversation with Danny Atkins and Alex Babich, founders of Kulani Kinis. Danny and Alex, welcome to ADD to cart.
Danny Atkins: Hi Nathan, how are you?
Nathan Bush: Good, good.
Danny Atkins: Thank you for having us today.
Nathan Bush: We almost had a little bit of a bust up before we even got into the conversation today. You know, a little bit of a mix up around AirPods and being worried about what the consequences are going to be afterwards.
Danny Atkins: Yeah, Alex wasn't prepared.
Alex Babbage: No, I was prepared. The technology was this but you know, as all things like it wasn't my fault but it will be.
Nathan Bush: We're not going to get into that here. But for the listeners out there. We'll go straight there. Right from the start. You guys are husband and wife running the business.
Danny Atkins: Yeah. So we've been married for four years and dating for about 12, I think. So we've been together since our early to mid-20s.
Nathan Bush: Amazing. And the business came along after you met?
Danny Atkins: Yes. Yeah. So the business is about eight years old now. So, yeah, we were together for probably about four years before we started on this journey.
Nathan Bush: Let's go back.
Nathan Bush: How did you guys meet?
Alex Babbage: We met a long time ago. It was actually through a chance by a friend. It's a funny story. It's one of those, like, fate really pushed us together. I went out on a boys night with a mate because he had just been dumped by his girlfriend. Danny was out at the same venue, and I remember my mate and I remember there being like four or five girls on the other side of the room. They were like, just making, like, these, like, sweet eyes at us. And we were like, no, it's boys night. Not allowed to talk to girls. That's fine. And so nothing happened that night. But then later that week, you know, I was talking to a friend in my university lecturer. His name was Brett, goes, oh, do you know the weekend? And I said, oh, this place. And blah, blah. And we didn't really think much of it. And then later that day, Brett went to another lecture with a girl named Michelle. And Michelle was like, oh, would you know? Yeah, you know, Brett and Michelle were talking. You know, Michelle was like, I was out of this venue and my mate was there being Danny. And Danny was trying to make eyes with this guy. You know, I used to go to the gym. It used to look a lot better back in my heyday, I like to say, when I was trying to do it. But yeah, and then he was like, oh, I know a guy that goes to the gym and was at that venue. It was with this guy and, like, held up a photo of me. He goes, oh, I know this guy. And it was just ended up being this, like, little serendipitous moment. And then I was like, oh, okay. So then we started like Danny and
Danny Atkins: I, like, based on Connected on Facebook. That's how old our relationship is when you used to message on Facebook. But, yeah, it was kind of meeting through mutual friends.
Nathan Bush: It could be the new version of youf've Got Mail.
Danny Atkins: Yeah, great.
Alex Babbage: It really felt like it. The world was pushing us together. And then, yeah, that's how we met.
Nathan Bush: All right, so take us forward.
Nathan Bush: So that was 12 years ago when you met and then eight years ago, Kalani Keeney's came about.
Nathan Bush: So what gave you guys the idea
Nathan Bush: that the world needed another swimwear label?
Danny Atkins: So I guess at that stage Alex and I were working in our own profession. So Alex was an accountant and I was a practicing psychologist working for New South Wales Health. So in the hospital systems was quite an intense job. And, you know, I worked in acute mental health. So I was thinking, you know, I'd been probably in that role for about seven years and looking forward to kind of maintain my own mental health and longevity in that career. I looked around and saw that those that stayed, you know, most balanced and looked after themselves had a split role. So they worked something outside as well as something in the health department. So I was looking around for maybe what else I could do that could complement working and not doing full time work on night calls and shifts and things. And it was probably around that stage that friends of ours started a jerky business, beef jerky. And we were asked to help them a little bit. So that was my first kind of time of helping someone seeing something like a product go from nothing to something and selling it. Alex and I were involved in a little bit of the marketing and production. It was very small at that stage. It still exists. So they're doing super well and selling through Costco and everything. So that was where I think I had, you know, the idea that maybe we could create something and potentially sell it. And it also timed with Alex and I used to go to every year, annually we would go away and we chase the sun, usually to an island of some form somewhere. And that's where we would really have some downtime from our works. We kind of worked all year, saved up to go on holidays. I bought some swimwear online. This would have been around 2014. So Ecom was, you know, kind of emerging and being a little bit time poor. You're just doing shopping online to get ready for your holiday. And I bought a couple of pieces, was a little bit shocked at what I got in the mail for something so small for the cost. But regardless, super happy went away. And Alex, this is, yeah, not to throw Alex on the bus. Alex got sick whilst, yeah, we're on our one, you know, one week away. And that is a really important part of how Killani became is because rather than adventuring and snorkeling and having cocktails and gallivanting around an island, I was stuck in a room with not much to do while Alex was passed out sleeping on a bed.
Alex Babbage: And it was because I drank the Local water, by the way, making it sound like I had too much sauce. I was like, excuse me. Okay, I just want to set it, I want to set the tone a little bit clearer here. Okay. So I just basically.
Danny Atkins: So I was in this little bubble in our room with, you know, not wanting to leave Alex and you know, also like had not much to do. So I really spent a lot of time on Instagram. That was the early days Instagram. And I had in my hands I'd packed the four hour work week and I got, yeah, I had that because I was obviously looking, you know, I had that curiosity about finding something that would complement psychology to help me sustain my career there. So I had purchased that online plus my swimwear. And I flew through the book and really just because we were in that environment, I had the bikinis, they were probably just on the floor not being worn. And I thought what is something that I can do that I could source on four hour work week talks about Alibaba, talks about Shopify. So it was really just, they were the first points and really big. I guess swimwear isn't I guess life changing. But we had this idea that I had seamless bikinis was a trend that was coming from I guess South America. And they were cheeky cuts. And we were looking maybe I was thinking about what could we do that would be something different which would be maybe offer a fuller coverage seamless cut but also at a better price point. And yeah, it just was really literally on the hotel bed in the room. Just start the starts for there.
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Nathan Bush: where did you start? Did you start with product? Did you start with building a website? Did you start with branding?
Danny Atkins: Initially I thought that I would wholesale another swimwear brand and become kind of like a distributor. And worked out within a couple of emails that that wasn't the way to. And that it was that I would have to design something to sell at the price that I had in mind, that I would have to kind of cut out someone else and be the direct designer and contact. So it was. Alibaba was the first step, sending off emails to potential manufacturers and navigating that whole space, which is very exciting.
Nathan Bush: Alex, you've got out of the bathroom and you've realized you've got a whole new business on your hands.
Alex Babbage: Oh yeah, it was the wild west of Alibaba tree back then. And Dani, to her credit, Danny to her credit, was the real driver of the brand from the start. The one thing I can always say about Danny is she's one of the most determined people I've ever met. And she, I think, like, when you're starting out, that was one of those things, like you really have to have that internal drive. And Danny was just. I remember coming home from work, so I would work and come home and I'd pop off the train and walk into our apartment. Danny had coded our first Shopify website herself. And it was just a basic minimal theme from the, you know, the Shopify. The Shopify, like, theme store with some changes. I'd come home, there'd be like five brand names on a, on a Word document. Which one of these do you like? And you know, I'm like, yeah, like Ohana Lahana, like Honu, like all these like Hawaiian names and the Kalani King. I was like, oh, that one.
Danny Atkins: So literation.
Alex Babbage: Literation. She was like, this is good. Yeah. So Danny was really a driving force and, and she says, you know, started with Alibaba and then I kind of got involved, obviously as the accountant. I was like, wait a second, this is a terrible idea. He's going to buy some more online. When you do a break even analysis and I do a cost structure, I just got out my Excel spreadsheet, start working that together. I think that it was so funny, you know, you had two different elements approaching the business from the start, which was definitely was really driving it. And I was really kind of being like, okay, so how is this going to work? What's the, what are the numbers? What do we need to do? And it was just a really, really interesting time just to start a business. I think Alibaba was so different back then. There was no, like escrow payments, there was no nothing. There was no transferring money overseas in any nice way. It was all, you got to go to Western Union or something like that. It was like OFX didn't exist. Like, you know, all these like other like payment services that are now around. So yeah, it was, I think September 2014 that Danny Red started reading that book. And we launched in February of 2015.
Danny Atkins: So that's later.
Nathan Bush: I understand it was a side business for a little while because you both have your own careers and professions outside of E commerce. How long did it stay a side business and when did you realize that? Actually, no, this is the main business.
Danny Atkins: Yes. So as Alex mentioned, we launched in February officially on Shopify. The website went live in 2015. And probably within a month or two, I asked the hospital, my team leader, if I could step back to part time. So a couple of days per week because Alex and I were filling orders before work, after work, during work, weekends. And obviously customer care was growing, you know, inquiries people. And we really wanted to reply to customers promptly. And so that's why I dropped part time probably within a couple of months. And then sidelining to all of this, Alex and I had actually because we loved Hawaii and island life and chasing the sun. We pre Kalani, we had on a prior trip to Hawaii, asked Ernst and Young, which is where Alex worked, if there would be an opportunity to move, you know, have a transfer from the Sydney office to the Honolulu office so that we could.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's just standard request.
Danny Atkins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alex Babbage: It was a very millennial request. Right. This is like totally fine. Like this makes sense for everyone else, such as us. Right? Yeah. So, yeah.
Danny Atkins: We were very lucky though, that that planted the seed. I think they loved the fact that Alex rocked up on our holiday and, you know, rather than us going to the BE in the Honolulu office and Alex split up in the lift and you know, met with one of the partners or two there. And a couple of years later, behind the scenes that was. Alex was still chasing that up as an option. But the satellite Honolulu was a satellite office of west, like the west coast, which is California. So there's opportunity that we could move to California. That was going along pre Killarney. And I think I became impatient with Alex trying to change our lives. I was like, well, what can I do that will, you know, speed things up? So we started Killarney and it all. It has timing. There's always a sprinkle of luck involved or an alignment. And that was. The California transfer came through. So. And that was we. I think we were notified around September that year and we ended up living there in November. So within six months we had landed
Alex Babbage: on Thanksgiving Day everything was closed, there was nothing open. We were like, what have we done? What have we done? Like we didn't get food.
Nathan Bush: This was the land of opportunity. But everything.
Danny Atkins: And we were in downtown la, which is. There are a lot of. Unfortunately there are a lot of homeless people there. So it was a very big change for us. So I left work. I was doing part time Kalani part time hospital. About around August my manager asked me to come back to full time because of the demand of clients and work and with LA kind of looming as an opportunity, I just made the jump. I said that's it. If I come back full time to work, I'm going to lose what we've built and I think we've got this opportunity on the horizon. So I'm going to, you know, after being with Health for eight years, I'm going to pause and head out. And that's. Yeah. So it's kind of pushed into jumping which we haven't looked.
Alex Babbage: Yeah. And also attached to that it was like it was. There was a lot of risk attached to it too. Like at that time like we then withdrew about 50 or 60,000 out of our mortgage like to like help fund that as well.
Danny Atkins: I don't think our parents know that. Yeah.
Alex Babbage: But yeah. So you know there was a whole, whole bunch of things like meshing together at that time it was really like we take a chance on this, we take a chance on a few parts to it and then we moved overseas. And the big thing that kind of happened for us as we moved overseas was we had this kind of sweet spot that we were finding in a market where and it kind of makes sense when someone spells it out but it might not be super obvious like without a first glance which is like when you start a brand that's direct to consumer usually it was the case with Danny wanted start this was really couldn't find like this kind of stuff in the market. It really wasn't like a like bright standout bikinis that we were doing. So we went to a couple of trade shows in America and that's really what helped us grow the business. We can talk about that a bit later. And then eventually what ended up happening was I was like I say moonlighting as a bikini baron for about a year and a half until the business was so big. So the moment we realized but it's time for her to go full time was when we moved. So she had to. I didn't leave my work for another year and a half. I worked to the point where we Were getting. I was getting my, you know, my monthly salary and sales online every day. I was sitting at my desk at work being like, this is a little bit, you know, full on.
Danny Atkins: Yeah. I was at home going, alex, I need help. We need to do something. I can't do customer care, dispatch, product development.
Alex Babbage: Like, yeah, but it goes back to that whole idea, like, we didn't start this. You know, some people start a business, like, we're gonna go crush this industry, and they're like, I'm gonna be the number one. It's that we started this thing to, like, you know, make an extra 20 grand a year so we could go to Hawaii. You know what I mean? So for the longest of times, we really. Oh, I really was like, surely this is gonna stop. Like, this is not. This is not gonna work. Like, we're like, this is not real. The sales are gonna stop. You know, there was a big bottleneck in my mind, which was just that psyche of, like, okay, we're gonna have to roll the dice and really go into it. And so, you know, I went back to work in Sydney. We then traveled to Miami Swim, which is a big trade show in Miami. We ended up getting very large, kind of like distribution, not just wholesale relationships opening up. People were like, the new collection is good. We had saved so much cash because it was just Danny and I in the business doing what we were doing, and we were working really hard. We were just kind of like, we've got this safety net of a cash balance, which is what an accountant would love. As the risk adverse debit and credit guy that I was. We had good numbers projected in terms of our wholesalers were saying, this collection's really sweet. So I kind of went back to work, and that week I said to my boss at aui, I said, I'm going to have to go. And he kind of knew because for the preceding year, I walk into the office with a duffel bag of bikini orders. Every so often he's like, oh, it's a good haul today, Babich. Or something like that.
Nathan Bush: As long as he knew about the business and just didn't think you were a weirdo lugging around bikinis with it.
Danny Atkins: I was going to say something that Alex touched on, which is beautiful. Is that the pressure? Because it was a side hustle we didn't have. I always think that that contributes to our success, that we didn't have this pressure looming over us. It was just one foot in front of another, one day at a time, which really, the momentum built naturally. And organically rather than having that like this has to work, this has to be something. So I think that's contributed to where we are today.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's not your all in place straight away. So tell us about where you are today because I think it's a really exciting story. Tell us how big the business and where you're retailed and skus whatever you can share around where you've got to.
Alex Babbage: We're pretty open book. Like we don't try and hide it yet. We just crossed over 20 million in revenue for this financial year and we're still got like a week or two left so we might just hit, might just hit a little bit more. So the business is definitely escalated. Where can you find us? Like we sell globally so to give IT context about 80% of our revenue is outside of Australia. So we really have a big cross border business and about, only about 10% of that is wholesale. So we really, you know we, we are found in you know big retailers in America and Canada and the UK and I was just literally 10 minutes before we started recording I was chatting to Sandy. Sandy is our head of wholesale. She used to be the head of wholesale for another large swimwear brand in America and she was just chatting with a whole bunch of retailers and Americans as a trade show. So she's there representing us now at the moment which is really cool and you know talking to anthropology and revolve and free people. Yeah. So you know Nordstrom's coming tomorrow at 9am so you know you'll, it's got a good trajectory and you'll find us in a lot of places.
Danny Atkins: To clarify it's not just Alex and I anymore. We have a team that works out really.
Alex Babbage: Computer here, you can see it.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I was going to say if you just automated everything so well that it is just you.
Danny Atkins: Yeah, we have a beautiful team comprising of about 40 people and that's you know, not part time. That's a blend of casual part time and permanent full time. But yeah we're very lucky. We have an amazing team.
Nathan Bush: And so you're back in Australia now is the team all located in Australia with you or dispersed around the world?
Danny Atkins: We have customer care based in Saudi Arabia. We have one beautiful girl there who's also leads optimization and knowledge lead. I guess as well we have Sandy who Alex referenced as in America which is great to have a foothold there and a base for especially for the wholesale kind of aspect of the business. We produce in China. We also talking to some new factories in Vietnam. As well as we work in Bali for some of our. Some linen that we've been sampling and. Yeah. But primarily we're based in the southern suburbs of Sydney.
Nathan Bush: Amazing. I thought it was really interesting how you're talking about that this started as a side hustle and there wasn't that pressure to start up. And obviously very calculated along the way and great risk management. You talked about chasing the sun, about just loving being near the beach and why you started in Hawaii. Launching the brand. Did you always hope that the US would be the main market for a customer or did you see it as, we'll start in the US but we don't know who, like which country will end up being most dominant?
Danny Atkins: Well, by accident we launched in February, which was after Australian summer. So that was just. Most girls in Australia would purchase swimwear maybe around November, December. So we launched it at a terrible time. It was winter in the US and going into autumn here. So we probably naturally, accidentally ended up launching at a time where we would transition into the U.S. but we. I don't know, I think we really thought that had the potential to be global, but we weren't focusing on any particular market. But it really was the fact that we moved to the US and had that opportunity there that we grew there first. And I think from that we then became, I guess, more successful here. But interestingly, in the US they see Australia as a lead for resort and swimwear. So I think the US has a tendency to look towards us as. Because a lot of the surf brands came from Australia in terms of Quicksilver and Ripcarl and Billabong. So I think Australian brands have a hold in some way. So it was a really beautiful union in a way.
Alex Babbage: Yeah. And our first actual order, I think I remember on our Shopify website was like order 1003 or something like that. Because we had done our first two test orders. Super worked. Right. And I think our first. Our first order went to a guy named David from the USA who was buying it for his family. So it was like the least person you would expect to be your first customer was your first customer.
Nathan Bush: We've got our customer Persona all mapped. He's not called David.
Alex Babbage: It's not called David. You just fight. You don't know what's going to come across. I remember pushing the work, like Danny went to bed and I was like making some late night tweaks and it was the. The 20th of February, I woke up, I pushed it live at 2am I remember waking up to go to work or something. I think you had gone, so I can't remember. I remember waking up at 8:30 in the morning and feeling very tired. But it was like $800 of orders after I woke up and I was just like. It was one of those moments where I was like, okay, I guess we're on. So there you go. And David was one of them. So, yeah, it was just one of those little funny moments.
Nathan Bush: Did you ever find out how David came across you?
Danny Atkins: I think it would have had to be Instagram. Yeah, that was the only, only place we were present. Definitely not with SEO.
Nathan Bush: And you're leading. You know, you really, really do an amazing job on Instagram and have for a long time, really leading the pack there. How have you found Instagram lately? Obviously it's been a bit tougher over the last few months for many. Have you had that same experience?
Danny Atkins: I can let Alex speak to this, I think. Yeah, I mean, we just crossed over half a million followers or we're now heading maybe towards 600,000, which is incredible.
Alex Babbage: I think that there's a really good. You need to be very. I think a lot of people who have success on Instagram have to have some humility around the fact that there was an advantage to starting four or five years ago where there isn't now. And I think a lot of people can say, oh, yeah, look, it's all about the content. All about. I was like, kind of, yes. But it's also like, you do have to acknowledge that when you have momentum, it really helps, you know, and the earlier start, the more momentum you have, the easier it gets. And I think like, when you do have a sufficient kind of size and scale, you can put more resources into, you know, creating beautiful campaigns, beautiful content, doing paid ads to doing a lot of stuff. I think it comes back to having a really good product. I think what we are so lucky as a brand is that we have a very visual based product, Right. And we actually don't really pay many influencers or anything to wear our product. We kind of consider ourselves like lucky that we can basically send our product to anyone and they'll want to wear it because one, it's really beautifully designed, it's a really pretty piece of fabric and they are looking for fresh content to make all the time. And, you know, I mean, especially like everyone loves holidays, like, you know, and our target audience, everyone loves the beach, loves, you know, waves and sun and it's a very natural, natural, you know. So I think, yeah, so I think
Nathan Bush: our product is a very social situation right Exactly.
Danny Atkins: It's a lot easier to share a swimsuit over toothpaste or something like that. Yeah, we're very lucky in that way. So we do, as Alex touched on, we gift a lot of product, which has been a big core part of our growth and exposure and finding people. So we're very lucky that girls are happy to share us.
Alex Babbage: Yeah. Like, I think even when we first started, like, I think being very practical, I was like, how are we going to get this out? I said, I think our first order was $10,000 worth of stock. And, you know, the choice was, do we buy the stock on the holiday? Danny was like, definitely buying the stock, Alex.
Nathan Bush: And I was like, this will buy our future holidays.
Alex Babbage: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we budgeted for 20% of our stock to be given away. That was how we kind of did it. We were like, we will go and gift this product out. And not with a view to make a tremendous amount of money in year one or two, but just really to get the word out there. And, you know, that's. That's the currency that you have when you're starting. And we had a good enough margin in the product to do that. Again, like, that's.
Danny Atkins: Again, there's no point in the stock sitting on your shelf just, you know, collecting dust. You have to get it out there.
Nathan Bush: And obviously we can see where the product is now. And it's a beautiful product, well designed, really inspiring product. But you guys didn't come from a product background. Obviously, there's fashion in the head. But how did you go from taking those concepts of what you wanted to bring to life and what was missing in market to actually having a tangible product? And I suppose the question is, what was the biggest lessons or hurdles that you had to get along the way of getting the product to the stage that it is today?
Danny Atkins: I think a big contributing factor to our success is our manufacturer. So we were very, very lucky to find on Alibaba sales agent initially who you know, and that is chance. You know, you can reach out to, you know, 5, 10, 20 different potential people. It's very hard to navigate. Whether you're dealing with an agent, a factory directly. It's something that you learn along the way. And we connected with an amazing girl called Jane, and we still work with her today. And, you know, whether it be luck or just how it is, her partner is a pattern maker, her husband now, and they are really a huge part of our, you know, they taught us so much about the product, and they really helped to take what we had as our vision and teach us, you know, we've learned, you know, things about bar tax, all things that, you know, we'd never heard of before. And they're really pivotal in helping us to get where we are today. So. And it's about, you know, really nurturing the relationship with them. And it's a partnership, not, I guess it's not a, you know, product that they're selling. We really are in it together and without each other, we wouldn't be where we are. I don't know if Alex would agree
Alex Babbage: with that, but of course I agree. That's definitely right. And I think, like to add to that, I think it's, you know, the product now is definitely better than what it was when it first started. I think that's also like a lot of people look at brands, you know, in year eight and be like, I'm not going to be able to compete with that. And I was like, yeah, probably. But you don't start there, you know, you start smaller and you start different. And you know, I think a lot of people have this, you know, perception that it's got to be this or nothing. And it's like, best thing you can do if you're starting your business is get your product out there, get feedback and then make it better. And that process to this day still happens. Like we, we analyze our returns data on specific shapes and be like, is it too big, is it too small? Too much fabric does a bunch. Then we go change that pattern, we go change that piece. So, you know, we are always iterating to make our product better. And you know, obviously with fashion, we're always changing. We change our prints every season and stuff like that. So I think like, if you can get into a patent early in your business, adapting like, you know, your DNA, it will serve you really well and really understanding that nothing is ever perfect. You really always, you have to move,
Danny Atkins: you have to have a very good product, but you have to be prepared just to move to market. Otherwise you'll get left behind as someone else is moving faster than you are.
Nathan Bush: Do you ever work out so hard and so much that you, you just crash? Yeah, I really feel your pain. But what's worse than a post workout crash? A website crash, Especially during Black Friday. This was the experience of the team at Muscle Nation before they re platformed over to Shopify Plus. Before Shopify plus, their website would crash with 80 visitors. Fast forward to 2019 Black Friday on Shopify and they sold over 70,000 units in the first hour of Black Friday and sold $4 million worth of stock over the entire sales period.
Nathan Bush: That's some serious flexing going on.
Nathan Bush: To read more of Muscle Nation's story and to see other case studies, visit the customer section on shopify.com auplus.
Nathan Bush: I can see that on your website you put a lot of effort into making sure fit is right. And I would recommend anyone who's looking or struggling with getting fit right and communicating that to customers to go onto your website and a look. Do you get much data out of that personalized sizing help coming through?
Alex Babbage: Yeah, yeah, we do. So we started that as a really basic contact us form on Shopify. We had like a developer just like basically mock up and contact us form with like custom fields. We collect that data and we've got this idea now where it really helped us frame where girls were like, we would take that daughter. What did they check out with? Did they listen to us and did they then return to make sure we get them the right advice? So we did that for a while and that was very manual because we weren't very sophisticated. But it gave us like a small introduction to. Now we're at the point where, you know, we are. We've done that probably about 10,000 times. So we now really know outcuts and we've really gone through like, if you're on the American website now, you'll see that we have a very different size guide to the Australian one. And we have web coordinator here actually going through every website updating every size guide for every product. And our web developer is even doing this point where we're doing a size calculator. So basically, rather than having to ask customers, asking our care team for that information, we can give it to someone. And then we're doing this thing which is very nitty gritty. But I like the nitty gritty, which is with Shopify 2.0 and new meta fields that you can do on Shopify. We're gonna try and save that data and, and use that to save customer fields and then show people stuff like when they give us their measurements, like we can help you along the way with other products. And I think that's where it goes to. You know, I think personalization is a really big thing that we want to look at, but it's not about. We don't want to curate what you see in terms of, you know, a lot of plan, a lot of people are, you clicked on this, therefore you will like this. We're not really into that kind of personalization. I'M just more like giving people something that like will fit them and is relevant to them and then let them decide what will work from there.
Danny Atkins: This is Nathan so important for us because we take beautiful pictures of the swimwear and beautiful backdrops and we can sell it. But really you want the customer to get it, be delighted and to keep it. Because returns, especially in fashion, can make up such a high proportion or a big pain point. So it's really about ensuring that the customer is going to be happy and hold their product and then come back for more.
Nathan Bush: And it also gives the customer that confidence that they can order last minute before they go away on that holiday or whatever it is and know that it's going to fix. They won't have time to return, I suppose.
Danny Atkins: Yeah, life is busy.
Alex Babbage: Exactly.
Nathan Bush: Now, lots of bikinis on the website at the moment. We mentioned how seasonal bikinis are. Is there any temptation to go beyond swimwear?
Danny Atkins: We are dabbling into linens, I think I mentioned a bit earlier. So we're very lucky that because Shopify is global and you can target anywhere at any point. So we chase the sun throughout the world. It could be summer here. It's summer somewhere usually or warmer. So we're very lucky we have that. But to grow, we have a beautiful existing customer database and there's only so many swimsuits someone would have. So naturally for us to keep growing, we're looking at what other products would complement or be useful for these, you know, for our girls. So we are exploring over swim is what we all resort wear, I guess is a natural move, but it is we are known for us when we're trusted for that. So entering a new category is something that takes a little bit of time and trial and error. So that's something that is new. We've tested accessories, so caps and add ons, I guess. Alex could talk about our cart slider, how that might be something that's useful.
Alex Babbage: Yeah, we do a lot of like, you know, in terms of increasing average order value. So there's a few levers you can pull. Right. You can definitely get more traffic to your website. You can increase average order value and you can increase your customer repeat customer rate and we try and do all three. So, you know, we advertise to a whole bunch of things to drive traffic. We do a lot of, you know, add ons, you know, our average cart size, it's about $180. So like our average order value is quite high for our price point and for our product and our return customer rate. Is really high. Like, we're doubling in size every year. But, you know, we find like 50 or 60% of our orders are returning customers. So we have, we really have like a very high percentage. So we've come across as a trusted brand and I think we do a really good job. I think the, you know, you really have to then figure out, wear you back into, like, what kind of products. You know, I think you do need to have customer recognition. We did what you wouldn't believe going back to David before. We're doing men's swim trunks now and they do really well.
Nathan Bush: They're really cool.
Alex Babbage: Yeah, yeah. And they sell. Every third or fourth order has been swim trunks in it. You wouldn't have thought.
Danny Atkins: Right.
Alex Babbage: So it's one of those things, like, you really do have to test and you have to be willing to take chances. And Danny and I have tried a slew of things, some of which have worked and some of which don't.
Nathan Bush: And now you guys are really open
Nathan Bush: with your story and we really appreciate what you've shared today. You don't keep anything to yourself, it feels, and I saw that as well in some of the video content you've released. Like you released some Covid vlogs around what you're going through in the business, Some of the challenges, a bit of behind the scenes, bit of what's and all. What's the motivation from your perspectives in sharing the behind the scenes journey of Killani?
Danny Atkins: I, I think there's two parts to that. I think the customer is curious. They want to learn more. They want to, I guess if they love the brand, they want to see what's happening behind the scenes. Is it something that is. You know, when I go to shop online, I always like to have a sense of who is this or what's the about us or who am I buying from. So I think having that there for people to kind of dive into at their own leisure is really important. And also it's a great, I think, diary for us in a way to remember what happened or think back to four or five years ago. It's documenting our journey and being able to reflect back on that and see how far we've come is really important. Really cool.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. It's funny, isn't it? Like even watching some of your Covid diaries, it feels like such a long time ago we were living with those restrictions and in those conditions, but it's not that long. So it's lovely to have that record.
Danny Atkins: Yes. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And you mentioned Danny, of your background and obviously as in the profession of mental health and it being quite intense, what lessons have you taken from that and applying to being an E Commerce founder?
Danny Atkins: So I think being a founder, especially in E Comm and navigating this, it's very overwhelming. It's also quite intense and there is a lot to hold and to do and it can feel very isolating at times and that you're often up late at night in a room on a computer, just trying to navigate where to next and question yourself and doubt. So I really think that just as with psychology, seeing someone and talking through problems, it's really great to have someone that you can bounce off. I'm really fortunate that I have Alex as my co founder and partner so that there's two sides to that. There is never a stop for us because finding that off switch is really difficult. But if you're a single founder, it's either finding someone that you, whether it be a partner or a friend or a mentor, someone just to help you regularly check in and download is. Is so important. Otherwise you carry it all and it can be very stressful. So I think that's really key. Also something Alex and I try and practice is self care. You know, whether it be it's very tempting to get stuck up late and you know, then you end up going into lack of sleep. And so I think it's really like making sure we're not having too many late nights because the hours just disappear at 2 or 3am in the morning and you can get really excited and energized by that. You also have to learn like if you're running on that energy and excitement and adrenaline that that will take a toll elsewhere. So it's really about making sure you're sleeping, you know, walking when you can, maintaining your inspiration. Alex and I listen to a lot of podcasts, so it's like finding things that really light your fire to keep you going and yeah, staying on track with that.
Nathan Bush: And do you have any mechanisms between the two of you to have those moments where it was like no business talk or like we're here, we're here as a married couple, there's no business. Or is it all just a big blend?
Danny Atkins: It's a big blend. To be honest, we're trying really hard to find that balance. Sometimes one of us will say stop, this is, you know, we have to. It's enough. Because you know, it just is. There is no break between work into nights into the next day.
Alex Babbage: I say it's like the terminator it never sleeps, it never stops. It will hunt you until you're done. Right? So like, and that's where I think, like, I think there's this weird fallacy, you know, I mean, I guess if you start a business with the, you know, a timeline to sell and you're working towards that, it works for that person. Most people start an online business not to sell it, but just to have a better life, to do something different, to get more balance because they want to work for themselves. You really have to understand that there is no end. That's your life. Right? That's your life. And you know, I think to Danny's point, it's, you can go all in, but can only go all in for so long. And, and I think, you know, finding balance is a really important step. And you know, what we've talked about a few times, which is just knowing that you'll always have to iterate. You'll always have to do things. You'll always. So like, don't rush, like, do it well, do it. Try and do things at once. It'll save you a lot of time. Do it properly and that's the best advice you can do. And yeah, I just think, yeah, good luck. In terms of finding a good balance, I think it's. We've got a three year old. I mean, imagine like doing that. Oh, you know, it's everything, everything's crazy. That's what's fun. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: You got to find the balance that works for you.
Alex Babbage: Right.
Nathan Bush: There's no playbook.
Danny Atkins: And we love bikinis, we love Simba. I think Alex and I also thrive off building a business. Just that no day is the same. There is always a challenge and something new, which in E commerce just, you know, that's the magic of it.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, absolutely. And you started the business chasing the sun and we've mentioned that a few times now. And I can see an amazing amount of photo shoots in beautiful locations in the eight years. Where is your favorite place that you've discovered in terms of chasing the sun?
Danny Atkins: Palm Springs would be. Yeah, hands down. Love that part of the world. It's very protected. The weather, it's usually sunny there. It has a great feel. You know, there's nods to, you know, retro and vintage there. I think we really, our heart is in a little bit in Palm Springs, I'd say.
Alex Babbage: Amazing.
Nathan Bush: Cool. All right, that's a great tip for anyone planning the next holiday now.
Nathan Bush: So guys, what's next?
Nathan Bush: What's in the forefront of your mind for the future of Killarney Kinis.
Alex Babbage: I'll start with this. We just brought on. So we got to this point with the business that we're very lucky. We've brought on a person, a long time friend of Danny's, who has a big background in terms of HR and hiring people. And the real path forward is to, for us is to grow the brands, grow it sustainably, get the right people involved and also trend towards making our products more sustainable, making our profile as a brand more sustainable. I think we've touched on this a few times. Danny and I don't have that background. And Danny and I, you know, we're just one part of this brand. You know, we have a whole team of people. And so the future for us is, I think, sustainability around products and around team and around culture. You know, it's really going back to, yeah, it's really going back to all those things. Like we people are your best, best thing in a business and they do so much and you realize how as a founder, as insignificant you are when you start having a team. And that's really what we want to invest back into our team and invest back into our product.
Danny Atkins: Nailed it. Alex.
Nathan Bush: Music to my ears. As someone who works with e commerce people all the time, I love when founders are 100% focused on building their team to do great things. Danny and Alex, thank you so much for sharing your story on Add to Cart.
Nathan Bush: We have a heap of questions that
Nathan Bush: we didn't get to, but you've been so generous with everything you've shared. Thank you very much. Can't wait to see what's next.
Danny Atkins: Thank you for having us, Nathan.
Alex Babbage: Thanks, Nathan.
Nathan Bush: I loved how real Danny and Alex were with their journey. No doubt it's going to be a huge inspiration that episode, especially if you're in the middle, midst of a side hustle or you're thinking about one I would love. We were discussing this after the podcast, coming back and doing a part two because I feel we've only got a fraction of that story. There's plenty more there and I can't wait to see how they're going to take on the world even further. Here are the top three lessons I got from today's chat. Number one, budget for giveaways. Kalani Keaneys were one of the first, the original retailers who worked out the power of Instagram as a sales channel. However, they haven't grown their following using Instagram influencers. Instead, they originally budgeted 20% of their stock to be given away to fellow sun chasers who shared the same vision and could help them grow organically and this was based on having a really quality and beautiful product that they would be proud to post.
Nathan Bush: Seems pretty simple, right?
Nathan Bush: But in today's world, the tactic still stands up. It just might be beyond Instagram Number two Over service Sizing information have a look at the Killarney Kinis website. They are a great example of giving customers above and beyond information on sizing and fit. This is to the point where they have different size guides. In the US and Australia. They've now had over 10,000 users of those size guides, which has meant that they get a whole bunch of data to optimize their sizing, which in turn helps minimize returns and increase returning customers over time. It's a really clever tactic. And number three Balance is hard. Self Care is crucial now. It's not often that we have a qualified psychologist on the show, so I wanted to make the most of the opportunity opportunity and I asked Danny about the managing stress in e Commerce. Now, despite starting out with the four hour work week and being inspired by it, Danny acknowledged that real balance is really a dream when you're a founder of a business of their size. Instead, it's about self care, finding a mentor, getting proper sleep, exploring your real passions. No matter what size business you run or work for at, making sure that you schedule in self care is critical, especially when you can't get the balance right. To get the highlights of today's episode, head on over to add to cart.com and sign up for our free newsletter each Tuesday. We will send Monday's episode summary links and discount codes for you to go next level on. And if you're looking to explore your next e commerce opportunity, come and Visit us at eSweet. We're a dedicated e commerce talent agency connecting the best e commerce talent with the fastest growing brands in Australia. Head on over to esweettalent.com where you can download the free e Commerce Salary guide and sign up to our weekly e Commerce job emails. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those customers adding to cart.
