[Voiceover]: It's not just us that would have lockers. There's thousands of locker lovers out there now Kim Kardashian has a locker the Rock. Like some pretty big A listers. A risk doesn't mean jumping off a cliff. It means taking a well thought through step in the right direction. I just think we might be onto something good here. Welcome to Add to Cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Every week, Nathan Bush from E Suite and an E commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course keep your customers adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello and welcome to Add to Cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and director at E commerce talent agency E Suite. Random Fact. My wife's favorite color is mustard. Now as colors go, it's a bit bold, it's a bit risky and it's bloody difficult to buy presents in of course. Which kind of fits her to be honest. Don't tell her I said this please. Today's guest has the same qualities. Becca Stern is the co founder of Mustard Maid. The place to go for stylish functional lockers. Yep, you heard me right. Lockers. You know, the essential high school backdrop in American coming of age movies. Getting the flashbacks right now. Becca's lockers have evolved into a range of shapes, sizes and colors. Mustard being one of them. Of course. Back in the day, Becca had a habit of rescuing vintage lockers she spotted on the side of the road. This locker passion grew and grew and when Becca finally succeeded in convincing her sister to get in on the business, there was no stopping them. Now a multi million dollar company selling in Australia, the UK and the us Mustard Made is well and truly well they're made. In this chat, Becca shares her formula for calculating risk taking the epic upcoming road trip she's taking with her sister. And we find out what Kim Kardashian's Mustard Maid locker was filled with. And it's not what you expect. Before we get into today's episode, I have an open invitation for you. If you are going to retail Global on the Gold coast next month, we, as in ADD to Cart, are going to be hosting the very first Add to Cart meetup on the Tuesday night we've booked out the Loose Moose. That's a pub, not the entertainment. And thanks to our supporters, impact.com shipstation and clear sale, we'll put on some food, a bar tab and some Great chat. It's a perfect way to bring in the Retail Global Conference, which promises to be amazing. To secure your free place at the Add To Cart meetup, head on over to the Add to Cart eventbrite page and reserve your spot. The link is in the show notes. Hope to see you there. All right, so thanks to our partners, Shopify plus and Signet. Here's our conversation with Becca Stern, founder of Mustard Made. Becca, welcome to Add to Cart.
[Voiceover]: Thanks for having me. Really excited to talk to you today.
Nathan Bush: Same. What people can't see if they're listening to this is that you are sitting in front of some of the most brightly colored, beautiful lockers in a row. Like, you're sitting in, like, some sort of funky school hallway.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I'd say that that describes it really well. I've got a whole row of our skinny lockers, all our colors, sitting behind me in our meeting room. Really makes me smile.
Nathan Bush: It's a beautiful backdrop. So let's dive straight in Mustard Made. Obviously, you guys specialize in lockers, and if you haven't seen them, I recommend pausing and going onto mustardmade.com and having a quick look because you really get an idea for the brand straight away. What made you get into lockers?
[Voiceover]: It is a great question. It is a little obscure kind of niche to be in in lots of ways. Hopefully when I explain, it might make a lot more sense. So I live in Australia, and I used to have a business selling jewelry that I made and other handmade things, and I just had this, like, weird obsession for vintage furniture. I think Australia has a lot of really great vintage or thrift stores here. So, yeah, I found a couple of different lockers on the side of the road. One of them was green and pink, which, if you have been on our website, you'll get why that's important. There are kind of key colors now and then. Other ones were from antique stores or, you know, just kind of randomly picked up along the way. And I had them in my studio and I had them at home, and I was always customizing them. So I would sort of put shelves in where there wasn't enough shelves. Or I'd put, like, wooden bases because they were so rusty. They would ruin the floor or things like that. And none of them shut properly. None of them locked or had keys anymore. They were so bashed up. The doors kind of, you know, never quite fit. But I just love them. Yeah, I just love that sense of history. And I think there's something about metal that ages gracefully. It's Kind of different to maybe wooden furniture. It's like. It's like it just has these dings and scratches and rust, and there's just something so beautiful to me about that. So, yeah, that was kind of. Kind of where, like, my passion came from. I didn't really realize I had such a passion, though, until kind of years later, Jess was over in Australia, and we were talking about starting a business together, which is something that we had always wanted to do. And I kind of threw out this idea. And Jess was like, no, I don't think so.
Nathan Bush: And Jess is your sister?
[Voiceover]: Yes, Jess is my sister and business partner. She lives in London, and she'd come all the way from London to meet my new baby. And we were kind of having this nice time having a walk on the beach when this conversation occurred. And she kind of. Yeah, she was a little bit skeptical, but I sort of left it like, you know what? You go home. Go back to London. Give me a bit of time. I've just had a baby, so time is kind of on my side here. I'm going to research it, and we'll, you know, see where this goes. And six months later, we were in China looking at factories. And six months after that, we were launching our business to the world. So I convinced her.
Nathan Bush: Did either of you have come from an E commerce background?
[Voiceover]: So I had run a couple of small businesses. I had my jewelry business, and then I also ran a market, so it was a monthly event. So both of those had an E commerce component, but were very small and local and handmade. So I think what I really learned from that was that I wanted a business that could scale, and I had kind of cornered myself in so I couldn't scale without losing the very essence of what was special about my business. So that was kind of really key in my mind. And then from Jess point of view, her experience was more in large corporates, where she had been a fashion buyer. So she was working. Yeah, For Primark was her last job before Mustard. So pretty large scale. Definitely kind of have it in sort of E Commerce, kind of hints through what she'd done, but not really more about products and product development, but all
Nathan Bush: in that retail space.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: And was it that made Jess no or maybe turn into a yes?
[Voiceover]: Oh, I love that question. I might have to ask her that. I think it was. She got really excited because her background is in sourcing products and working with manufacturers. So she kind of, you know, I guess saw that there was, like, a spark and a passion in how, you know, that was kind of the first thing we had to do was suss out, can I even make these? I sort of taught myself to draw in 3D so I could show her some pictures and show them to some manufacturers. And I think once the ball started rolling. But it wasn't until we were in this factory in China and we walk into their office and saw the samples they had prepared that I think she really went, ah, yeah, I would have one of those. And now she has. Let me think she's got 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in her home at the moment, which, yeah. Has come down from about 13 since they've just renovated, so a lot of their stuff is in storage. But, yeah, needless to say, she. She's pretty convinced now that it's not just us that would have lockers. There's thousands of locker lovers, so.
Nathan Bush: Good. So for people who can't see the lockers, can you explain to people how these might not be the type of lockers that they have in their heads?
[Voiceover]: Yeah. So I guess picture, you know, the high school scene of lockers. Throw that out the window. These are colorful. They're practical. They're versatile. So they are really nice, kind of smooth matte finish. And I think we always kind of tell people that they're so much better in real life. I could think even, you know, our friends or family, when they saw them, they also were like, oh, wow. Yeah, they really are nice in real life. I think that's always my. My favorite compliment. But they're nice. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Moves from a. Oh, that's. That's an interesting idea to actually. They're really nice.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. And can I have one? Yeah, yeah. So they have. Have the kind of traditional events, that kind of really simple handle. They've got our mustard logo kind of subtly embossed in the front. And then inside, the shelves can all be moved. You can take them out. The rails can come in or out. And one of the small little things that I love is that you can lock them, which sounds obvious, but a lot of cabinets out there in the world you can't actually lock. So that can be really handy for your booze stash or your kids maybe want to hide their toys from their brother or sister or something like that. But also, you don't have to lock them, so they'll still shut without the key. So if you don't want your kids to have the keys, you can take it away. And that's all good, too.
Nathan Bush: That's a very handy concept, like, especially with kids from birth, where you're just trying to keep them out of stuff all the way through to teenagers where you're trying to keep them out of your boo stash. I love it.
[Voiceover]: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And so who is your audience? Did you launch this with an audience in mind or has it kind of evolved as you guys have grown?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I mean, I think when you think of lockers, you might think gyms or high schools. Ours are more about the kind of. I guess there's the home. So definitely there's a big audience of mums buying them either for themselves, like you say, for their own things to keep away from their kids or maybe to have their TV on so they can keep all the cables and PlayStations or whatever in neatly inside. Then I suppose there's the workspaces. So especially with a lot of people working from home, it's kind of this like one stop shop for all your office storage. And then we do, I guess we do appeal to more corporate environments. So we've had things like Pilates studios or lawyers offices or a vet bought some the other day. So there's that kind of practical element that brings a little bit of color but still really, you know, functions really well. So yeah, for home, for work and for play is how we sum it up.
Nathan Bush: Now if you listen to this podcast, you probably have a little hunch that there's a big future in e commerce. And if you're anything like me, you want to know what the next big trends are. Luckily, Shopify have done the hard work for us and compiled the Future of Commerce report for 2022. They identify the main trends in E commerce, retail and shipping and they go a step further with practical tips on how to implement them and insights from the best in the business. There's heaps of info available on the site on what I must say is a very well designed page as well as a comprehensive PDF available for download. Head on over to shopify.com auresearch future of commerce to download it today. We'll also put the link in our show notes for easy access. Is there any weird scenarios that you've heard of people using lockers? You were like, I didn't design them for this.
[Voiceover]: Yes, so many. So one actually somebody who works for the logistics partner that we use, she is really into horse riding. So she has all her horse riding stuff in there. We've also had like motorbike enthusiastics enthusiasts, sorry who have asked us, you know, is it big enough to fit a bike helmet? So there's those kinds of things. We've also had some really touching stories. So people, because they can lock. There's an element of keeping things safe. So we had one lady whose son was. She needed to keep his medication away from him because he was going through a really difficult time. So it was this kind of safe place to keep even things. Like she spoke about knives in her home and wanting to keep him safe from those things. So I think sometimes you don't really realize as a business owner, the impact that your product might have on people. Sometimes it can be, you know, really powerful that this product that you did design for one reason can actually have a really different function.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And how do you find out about those stories? Is it through people, like in the presale, people asking those questions, like the motorcycle helmet or people reaching out to you after they've used it?
[Voiceover]: Probably a bit of both. We have such really kind, lovely customer service staff here. Like, they are absolute gems. And sometimes those conversations can be so personal and so meaningful and, you know, it is an object, but it has so much potential, I guess, in somebody, in somebody's home or space to have an impact, which I think I couldn't really have predicted that. But it is something that we all take a lot of joy from us connecting with your customers. It sounds kind of cheesy, but it's. It really does matter to us.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And with those lockers, it's not like you could walk into a room and ignore them.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I hope not.
Nathan Bush: They're going to be part of people's lives every day. So it's really important that you have this customer service mentality that reflect the product as well.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, absolutely.
Nathan Bush: So Jess is in London, you're in Newcastle in Australia, and you set the business up that way. Did you set it up from day one to be an international business rather than a start in Australia and expand out kind of business?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, we really did. I think one of the key things about our product is that it's very big. So we kind of knew that there had to be a certain amount of scale in terms of production. You know, we can't just ask for one or two. We need to order by the container load. So there's. There's an element of the necessity of scale for this product to be manufactured or shipped. From the start, me being in Australia, and because I had sort of been on my. I'd call it maternity leave, I worked for myself, so just kind of time off, I would say it's really relaxing
Nathan Bush: when you've got a young child in the business to run. It's like just cruisy.
[Voiceover]: Exactly. So, but I guess, I guess it meant that I had a little bit more time to establish things here and we kind of got a sense that things would be easier to launch in Australia. People are really nice here. They're generally happy and positive. I would say England felt a little bit, a little bit more uphill. So it was kind of a really nice testing ground. And then six months later, we launched in the uk. So that was kind of a pretty clear plan for us. But also, I suppose it was a plan, but we were open to the fact that the plan might fail. So the way that we actually launched was going to this trade show with our samples and what kind of looked like a business. Like we had a logo, we had some leaflets, we had some order forms, and yeah, we had these kind of shiny, nice samples there, but we didn't have production kind of. We hadn't pushed go yet. We hadn't even set up a bank account and we hadn't registered our business officially because that cost about $1,000 and you don't want to spend $1,000 if this all, you know, goes tits up and doesn't go anywhere. So we went to this trade show with enough kind of in place to test the market and see whether we were going to make any sales. And if we hadn't, then great. We hadn't bought container loads full of lockers. And if we had, then we would know what products were going to be popular, which colors, and so we could get that product mix right when ordering and then supply based on that. So it kind of, yeah, it still makes me laugh thinking about us standing there like, yeah, place an order. We kind of, you know, we had enough ducks in the row. It wasn't like we were scamming them. It was just that we needed that lead time to know and to prove to ourselves that there was something in this product. We set ourselves this goal that we were going to get nine orders in a four day event. And we smashed that on the first day. So, yeah, we kind of went home just feeling like, okay, I think, I just think we might be onto something good here. And, yeah, by the next week we were ordering four times the amount that we thought. And it arrived a couple of months down the line and it all kind of went to plan. Jess quit her job, started working full time for Mustard, and we launched in the UK with a kind of similar pattern with the trade show first testing the market. We were a little bit braver that time and we had actually ordered some to be on the water by that point. So I guess our confidence levels had increased by then.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that's great. It's a common theme. Like, I know when you're telling the story back, it may seem a little bit back to front, but you know, we're hearing that from a lot of founders. We had Adam from Co Co Cleaning and his was like, we spent six months in the markets talking to people with, you know, basic products just to get a feel and an idea before we put these mass orders in and, you know, bet the farm.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, and I think that's, you know, I think entrepreneurs often talk a lot about risk. And for me, you want to be smart about the risks that you take. And you don't have to go in blindly into taking risks. You can do your research, you can be prepared, you can test things, you can tweak things. You know, a risk doesn't mean jumping off a cliff. It means take taking a well thought through step in the right direction and hoping that it works out and knowing that sometimes it might not despite your best efforts, but particularly, you know, having a family, I think, you know, I took a choice to not earn any money for a significant amount of time and I took that responsibility quite seriously. You know, I was, I was asking for a lot of my family and my friends who all supported me and I really wanted to know that I was definitely onto, on the right track here. And so, yeah, I'd really encourage people, I think, to take healthy risks and like when you're sure, you go all in completely, but you don't have to go in blindly.
Nathan Bush: Yes. It's about researching the cliff before you jump off it.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, exactly. And you know, having the right, maybe having an abseiling rope so you don't actually have to fall, you know, being prepared for what might happen when you, when you jump.
Nathan Bush: And was the name Mustard made right from the very start?
[Voiceover]: It took a while to land on a name, but it was kind of the first and last name, if that makes sense. Like, it took a lot of thinking. And when it, when it struck me when I was literally driving and I'm like, I got it, I got it. And it really came from. Because I just had this baby, Ellis, and I had been thinking a lot about color names. It was kind of, you know, one of those Internet wormholes I'd gone down like Scarlet or Olive or, you know, they tended to be more, more girls names. And I have three boys, so I never got to use any of those. But I liked a lot of names that were linked to colors. So that I think had been kind of playing on my mind. And then it was just this sort of, like, combination of it being something recognizable and memorable. It kind of looks nice on the page. Like, the. The length and height of the letters are really nice. So that was sort of important to me, too. And this idea that mustard isn't for everyone, you know, not everyone likes mustard. My kids will not eat a burger if it has mustard on it. That's fine. That's them, and that's okay, you know, that everyone's a little bit different. And I think I sort of had this feeling that our products were a bit like that. You know, not everyone is going to understand a locker being a, you know, a bedside table. And that's cool. Not everyone needs to. So it was that sort of play on words, I guess, that it was. It was this color that happened to be particularly, like, on trend at the time. And then it's this sort of love it or hate it sauce. And then lastly, I guess I justified it to everyone by saying, you've got an Apple phone. That makes no sense either. So I'm going with mustard.
Nathan Bush: Well, I think Alice should just be happy that she wasn't called mustard.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, exactly. We always joke about this business that we're going to start called ketchup that is coming next. So watch this space.
Nathan Bush: Watch this space. My wife's favorite color is actually mustard. It was one of the first things I learned about her, and I'm like, oh, thank you.
[Voiceover]: Nice.
Nathan Bush: She's one of your likers. We'd get on well talking about the colors, because. Let's stick on that theme because you don't have a huge range. I think there's four different types of lockers and a pretty limited color set, but a really distinctive color set. You can tell there's been a lot of thought and a lot of experimentation going into the colors. How do you come up with what colors and what designs make the cut to keep this range tight?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I mean, I actually had some really good advice from a friend of mine who's an architect, early on when I was throwing my ideas kind of her way and seeing what she thought. And it was this idea that you should go kind of have complexity in one direction. So for me, that translated as a very simple product line, but more complexity in the colors. So having more options. And it was that idea that you don't want to overwhelm people. You know, is it sort of too many sizes and shapes and too many colors means that you you actually can't decide. And I think, you know, sometimes we might be on, let's say a fashion website and there is thousands upon thousands of pages and it's that kind of overwhelm that can sometimes put you off actually making a choice. So I thought that was like this like really good nugget of wisdom that she gave me, and particularly when we started really pulling it back. So we, we started with two products and six colors, and now we're up to five lockers and 10 colors, as well as our sort of accessories on top. Yeah, I think in terms of the choices that we've made, they've been a combination of what we love mixed with what colors we're seeing kind of trending and popping up in different places and then looking at them collectively as a family and how do they kind of work together and the sort of mix and match nature of the lockers. So it's kind of. Yeah, always looking for the gap that is going to, I guess, appeal the broadest. And as we, as we go, like seasons change, colors change and taste sort of change. So that's kind of always adapting. Yeah. We've got a couple of new colors in the works at the moment, which I'm really excited about. But, you know, in essence, our products are pretty simple. They change shape and size a little bit, but they mostly. They change color.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. Have you had to retire some colors that you've kind of like grown fond of that weren't on trend or they were falling out of favor?
[Voiceover]: Oh, I love that question. Because it's a controversial one for our team. There are certainly higher performing colors and lower performing colors in terms of sales, but I personally really argue for those, the ones with the, like, slower sales, because I think across the different regions that balance can be different. So what doesn't sell so well here does sell really well in the US So far. So I think there's, you know, and there's always kind of the idea that like, I guess I landed on with the name that something doesn't have to be for everyone. You know, not everyone is going to like a bright mustard locker in their home, but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun. And I often think that people are drawn to the stronger colors, the little bit more controversial colors, and they might settle for something a bit more neutral, but it was the boldness of the colors that made them fall in love, if that makes sense.
Nathan Bush: That's your differentiator.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it also makes really fun styling, for sure, to have those colors to play with and the different kind of personality that they bring.
Nathan Bush: On the flip side of that question, have you ever been tempted to do a white or a black locker for those people who love the function of them but have very minimalist homes? As you can probably see my background here, it's all white here.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. So we do, we have a slightly warm toned white and we have a kind of blue toned slate. So it's not black. We do get asked for black and we were certainly weighing that one up. When we first started, we were pretty adamant we were going to have four bold colors and then we added in those two neutrals. And I'm really glad that we did because I think they, they do work really well with the other colors. And yeah, they, they definitely appeal to, to certain people. And you know, maybe in combination with a bright color, you might want something neutral. So yeah, I think they all have a place in our rainbow.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, but you are known for your beautiful, bright, standout colors. One of the things that I love that you do is that you have that you sell color swatches on the website and I think are they $3.95 in Australia?
[Voiceover]: 3:50.
Nathan Bush: 3:50, yeah. And you can get them mailed out to. And they're actually the material, the metal that is used with the color so people can see them in person. I love that idea. Are they, are they a popular feature?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, they really are. And you know, we didn't do that from the start, but I'm so glad that we introduced it. And I think, you know, purchasing online, we all know that you can mess it up and you know, sometimes you want to send stuff back and we didn't really because our products are flat packed. It's a little tricky if you've opened the box and you've got all the parts out to then send it back. So it's this way of kind of vetting, you know, like the customer needs to make sure that they're committed. And because we do have that range of colors and color is such a personal and emotive thing, we really want people to know that when they are purchasing that they're going to be happy with it. So I think it improves customer satisfaction. It's also a kind of low bar to entry in terms of purchasing. You know, once they've bought that color swatch and we do charge for it, I know a lot of people, places might do that for free. We kind of believe that it's, you know, it's a service that we're offering and if you get it right, it's going to save you a lot of money from buying the wrong locker. And again, it's I think even from a sustainability point of view, like you're purchasing something and it, you know, it takes an envelope, it takes time, it takes a courier to put it in their van and move it to your house, all of those things. So we, we have a nominal amount that just encourages a little bit of thought in terms of that, even that small purchase. But it's kind of that first buy in level I think for a lot of customers and people even do fun things like use them as gift tags or recycle them in different ways. But yeah, I'm really proud of that kind of addition to our website.
Nathan Bush: It's such a nice way for people to experience not only the colors and the product, but also the must have made customer service and the experience and the brand on a deeper level than they may have than just visiting a website.
[Voiceover]: Totally. We really believe in being helpful. That's kind of one of our core values, is helping where we can. So I think that's a, it's a really nice, practical way to help our customers. And then often they'll send us photos, you know, they'll take a picture of their kids room and hold up the two colors and ask us which one we think looks best or which two might go best together. And I think yeah, it just kind of adds that level of interaction as well and an opportunity to create a sort of strong rapport with the customers.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, speaking of rapport, the copywriting on your site is brilliant. And I was just having a look around in the shipping side of it and the line around and this is a quote. The shipping timeframe shown at the checkout should be taken with a pinch of salt and another pinch of patience, which I love. I mean it's such a beautiful way of putting it. How do you manage customer expectations around such an uncertain supply chain at the moment?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, it's been a lot to navigate and it takes a lot of consideration. I think I talked about being helpful. We have three core values and the other one is honesty. Also kindness. So I think for us we always come back to that question, do we really mean that? And if we don't really mean it then then we maybe need to explain it or change it. You know, sometimes we say things that we don't, you know, I mean you don't really mean that like for example, saying you know, like I'm sorry and sometimes you don't really mean sorry. Because it wasn't your fault at all. And maybe it's actually better to really explain what happened. For example, you know, I think sometimes I'm a big believer in the power of words and I think having really realistic expectations and, and wording it in such a way that is genuine. Like we actually right now we can say it's two to three days, we can check with the couriers, but God knows what's going to happen between now and then. Like things beyond our wildest dreams and certainly out of our control have happened. But what you do get from that is that we'll be there to help you. You know, that if you do write to us and say it hasn't arrived, we're probably going to be the kind of people that are going to help you to figure out where it is or, or send you a new one if that one's gone missing. And I think it's that kind of level of care and attention to detail that builds trust. So that you expect that if something does go astray, which quite honestly it does happen, particularly in the last few years, that we've got your back.
Nathan Bush: I think it's such a great opportunity on pages, especially pages like shipping pages or privacy pages, where a lot of the times it just looks like it's been sent to a lawyer, written by a lawyer and then uploaded. Whereas if you go actually these people thought about it and they've written it themselves, they actually really mean what they're saying here. It's a great opportunity to be personal.
[Voiceover]: We also update that regularly. So I think that's also where that kind of lawyer talk vibe comes from. It's like you wrote it once when you started a website. You probably copied and pasted it off of a different website and stuck it on there and then it stuck. And for us, that's actually something that we kind of constantly do update as things change. And we update that shipping period and even at the checkout, that moment where you see the pricing and the kind of estimated time, we're constantly adding little caveats just to make sure that, you know, also these are really large products and it's one thing to deliver a T shirt in a, in a, you know, satchel, but this is a 2 meter box that weighs 25 kgs and is being delivered by, you know, a very nice courier who might be having a really bad day. So it's that kind of realistic expectation. Yeah, I think, I just think that people appreciate hearing from people. That's what it comes down to. People want to talk to people,
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[Voiceover]: Yeah, I think we are uniquely challenged in that sense because I kind of often, you know, would describe it like say a furniture company who sells really big bulky sofas. You would have an expectation that it would be delivered in a certain way and you would pay a certain price for that. Whereas because I was a flat pack, there's a bit more of an expectation it's going to come like a normal box and therefore I want to pay like a normal box. Or does that make sense that you kind of, you're not expecting like a white glove service here. And our products are you know, mid priced, they're not super premium so so there isn't really kind of a, a balance in the retail prices for having this really kind of top end delivery service. So what we've done is try to work within the very limits of normal couriers. So our boxes and our products are literally designed to fit within their capabilities. One of the challenges is that changes. So we are anticipating some big changes here in Australia where they going to reduce like certain of our key couriers are going to reduce their range of what they will handle and that may well cut out a section of our larger products. So that's kind of a bit of a challenge.
Nathan Bush: Why do you think that change is coming now?
[Voiceover]: I think because the demand for online shopping is so high that why would they carry a 25kg box when they could take that T shirt in a satchel? There's a lot more economy for them in, in the smaller products and we just probably don't make them enough money. Yeah, I wish that that wasn't how it was. But the way that these couriers work, you know and the rate of, you know, how the kind of finances work and are distributed, the couriers only get a certain amount for each, you know, order. So a smaller item is going to be more appealing to them. So I think it'll kind of change the dynamic here in Australia. And we're working out, working with our logistics partners, partners on what that might look like, what the additional charges for us might be, or whether it rules us out working with them completely. So I would say over the years we have moved to different couriers across all the regions over time. Even things like one of the things we learned recently, which you don't read in a book, is that we have the strapping, the plastic strapping on our boxes. And in America we found out that although they hadn't actually done it technically, they could charge us for every time that they were strapping on the box as a kind of surcharge that was going to double the amount of shipping because sometimes those fall off and they get caught in their conveyor belts so they don't like them. So who knew that, you know, who knew? Now we know and we are going to remove that strapping which then has a trade off that the strapping is there to make it easier and safer to carry it. So although it is plastic, which, you know, was a negative, we kind of weighed it up as a necessity because people have to move them. And now we're at the point where we're like, okay, now we have to take that off. So I think it's, you know, it's a constant learning process for us being, being somewhere between, you know, we're not large enough to do our own delivery and we also never really wanted to get into, you know, we weren't planning to be couriers.
Nathan Bush: So sounds like there's an opportunity opening up for people who can do bulk goods.
[Voiceover]: Totally. We'll sign right up if that will, you know, someone wants to start that. But really though, I think what I was saying before about people talking to people, the key to us has been finding those good humans, you know, and really connecting with them. Like our UPS manager was like a close friend of Jess's, like their friends on Facebook still. And we are always like, can you come and work for us? And then here in Australia we have an amazing fulfillment partner who they just really cared about the progression of our business. And when these challenges occur or things go wrong, we are patient with them and they are supportive of us and they always tell us we're like one of their nicest customers to work with. And we would absolutely say the same thing about them. So I think that, you know, whether it's direct your customer or it's your fulfillment partner, it's all about relationships and being nice humans.
Nathan Bush: That's so good. One of the people I was working with was they have a very specific product that's very breakable and they've got customers all over Australia and as a courier network that they use and their customers were constantly blowing up. They tried multiple courier networks before. This was the best that could deliver this product. And their customers were constantly blowing up on them at Facebook. But they always stood up for the courier. Courier. I can't even speak to courier. But also explain to the customer why it is what it is like to say that these are the challenges. And so it's not just a shift all the blame over here and blame these people because that doesn't result in a good outcome for anyone. Really.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I always see online business, Facebook groups, people say, you know, Australia Post, lost my parcel. Who else has got a better courier? And I always just want to write and sometimes I do. Like, they're all flawed. They're trying to do a very difficult job, which is get literally millions of things to millions of places. And I can't even comprehend the complexity of that. And so yes, sometimes things go wrong, but. And I think having that, you know, we have very high expectations, like generally, you know, and I think, you know, places like Amazon don't do small businesses any favors because they have that scale that offers, you know, something that we can't. So what if we can't do that kind of three hour delivery or whatever it is, free delivery. What we can do is that open communication and genuinely caring that their product is lost and not stopping until we find a solution. So, yeah, I think it's not something that I thought I would be passionate about when I started a business, but I could talk all day about it now.
Nathan Bush: You just wanted vintage lockers and now you're talking bulky goods delivered all over the world.
[Voiceover]: They actually call it ugly freight. Yeah, we are in the ugly freight category. It's pretty sad, but here we are.
Nathan Bush: All right, moving on from freight to sibling relationships. So we mentioned Jess is in London, you're in Australia. How do you guys stay connected and keep this business running towards the goals that you're wanting to? What are some of the tools and the rituals that you have in place to make that work?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I think, you know, when it was just the two of us, it was quite different. Now we have a whole team, which I have, I think I've actually found that quite challenging, but also the most joyful experience. So now we tend to work quite separately, and I think that's really been the key that's made our partnership work, is that she deals with, you know, kind of some areas of the business, I deal with others, and they don't tend to directly overlap. So we're not kind of in competition or, you know, it's a very clear division and very natural division of what would be on Jess's plate and what would be online. So I guess that's kind of the first, the first thing I'd say in terms of tools. Again, like when we started, we had, we had the same emails. We would literally read every single email, both of us, you know, and it was kind of like, who's going to reply to every single email, every single DM and Instagram or whatever. Now we've really made sure that everything is on the cloud and we've learned to separate and step back from things a bit. But having everything has to live on the cloud. It's like a motto.
Nathan Bush: Everyone can see it.
[Voiceover]: Everyone can see it at any time of day because at any one point in time, half our team is asleep. It's kind of taking that remote working to the next level where they're not just not in the room, they're actually fast asleep. So, you know, you can't talk to them. So we have to always be able to kind of communicate or pick up where someone left off or, you know, check in with what's going on without disturbing their sleep, I guess. So being cloud based for us, that means we use everything's got to be on the kind of G suite. So I got Jess, took me a long time to get her off Excel. She's now completely cold turkey off Excel, which I love.
Nathan Bush: Well done.
[Voiceover]: And then we use Trello, we don't use Slack, which is kind of like probably the next step for us. We tend to communicate more through our, like Google Chat and then through Trello as well. Yeah, okay.
Nathan Bush: We started with Slack and then it was just a bit too much for some people who hadn't used Slack.
[Voiceover]: Cool. Well, that's good to know. I think sometimes, you know, you can honestly, you kind of think that all of these tools, they sell it to you, like they're going to solve all your problems and guess what, you're gonna have some new ones. So I kind of think sometimes like streamlining, like for us, Trello works pretty well because like I said, you know, when not everyone is awake at the same time of day. It's less about chat and more about leaving those sort of breadcrumbs. Almost like, this is what I've been doing. You can pick up or you can read over it. So our copywriter is in the uk, so she, you know, might prepare a document, I might read it the next day. I'd say that it does. The biggest kind of downside is that it slows us down because we've got to wait 12 hours sometimes for a reply. So that can be. As someone who's a little impatient, that can probably be a bit of a block for me is, you know, do I just get it done or do I wait for tomorrow?
Nathan Bush: But what I love to around that approach, we use Trello as well, and we've got a little rule that is like, don't brief me in Google Chat or over the phone. Go write your brief in a Trello card and then let's talk about it on Google Chat or wherever it is. But at least then it's captured and we go, cool. We all agree this is what we're doing because so much gets lost through those channels as you're kind of bouncing around.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. And actually, for us, I would say in the office, a lot gets lost there. So actually going and writing it down, even if you are chatting in person or chatting, you know, online, it's still really good to write stuff down and. And kind of crystallize it. And also, I think, so that other people can see what you're up to. We have quite a kind of open Trello policy, like everyone can kind of see everything, see what everyone's up to, or leave each other kind of notes. And I think that really kind of encourages that collaboration.
Nathan Bush: That's cool. And your relationship with Jess, are you guys. You still friends, still enjoying the journey together?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, we're definitely still friends. You know, we have our sister moments, I think, is that. I don't know, it's like when you're family, your family, it's solid. And it helps that we live on opposite sides of the world. We're not in each other's pockets. I think we'd probably fight a lot more. We certainly do when we're together. Always have, you know, a couple of moments where it gets a bit hairy, but generally we. Yeah, it's been such a pleasure in my life, such a joy to work with somebody that I really, deeply care about. You know, we. It's that feeling that we just always have each other's best interests at heart. And I trust her completely and know that, you know, any decision she makes, like, she damn well buddy have my destiny. And she does. And also I think, becoming, becoming. She's become a mum. Last year she had a little baby puppy and that's been, you know, such a privilege, I think, to be able to support her through that journey. We've just had International Women's Day yesterday and, you know, a lot of the stuff that we talked about here was about being parents at work and just how challenging that can be. And so I think being able to provide my sister someone that I love with the kind of space and time to figure out parenting while still having a job, working out what it is that she needs has been, you know, something I'm really proud of.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. And what a beautiful way for you guys to stay connected during the last three years where it's been harder than ever to see each other cross country.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, totally. I think we never anticipated that. I think I've spoken to a lot of people from the UK who live here and we always, everybody always says the same thing. Like the deal was it's a 24 hour flight. Like, yes, it's expensive. Yes, it's, you know, it's a long journey and you're going to be very tired. But I know that if anything ever happens, it's just a 24 hour flight. And so I think to have that kind of taken from under your feet for two and a half years was, yeah, you kind of. That wasn't part of the deal. I didn't sign up for that when I moved to Australia, away from every single member of my family. So it was difficult. But, you know, Jess and I still spoke daily and she's actually on it. Tomorrow she will be on a plane coming here for the first time. They finally opened the borders enough for her to get in. So, yeah, I'm really, really thrilled that she's going to get to spend a month here.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. What's on the bucket list for a month in Australia?
[Voiceover]: A lot. And not much of it is outside of work. It's mostly work for her and Poppy and her partner Mark, who also works for Mustard now. So, yeah, we're gonna start off. She's actually flying to Melbourne where we're gonna meet her for a photo shoot. So she's got two days to recover, then we're picking her up, taking her to a photo shoot, which means for me, a 14 hour drive. Yeah, just for fun.
Nathan Bush: Why are you driving?
[Voiceover]: Because we've got a Lot of lockers to bring. We thought about sending them but honestly, I mean we talked about how the couriers can be a bit unreliable and we just feel like if we just stick them in a van and we get there we're in control. So. And then we can bring all our props and we've got. We're actually going to a customer's house. This is the level of, you know, locker love there is out there. It's a customer we who bought from us very early on when we launched and she has this incredible home. It's really, it's kind of all white with loads of color which suits us really well. She's actually from England but lives in Mount Martha Down. Yeah, the Mornington Peninsula. So somewhere I've never been before. And I kind of threw this idea out to my team and they're like, yeah, okay, we'll come get the kids babysat, figure out some. So two of us are driving, a couple are flying. We're taking out the photographer that we use from Newcastle and we're just going to have some fun and do a photo shoot.
Nathan Bush: How good?
[Voiceover]: Yes, amazing. It's really cool being, being your own boss and you get to try out these ideas and people are like, yeah, okay, I'll do that. I'd love to.
Nathan Bush: Who do I have to ask if we can do it? Oh yeah, that's just me. We'll just do it.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean that. I think that's my favorite thing about my job is that I get to write the rules and sometimes they can be just for fun. I mean it's. The shoot itself is not for fun but we certainly could have done it somewhere closer to home. But why not go somewhere beautiful and drive for 14 hours and we're going to listen to some audiobooks. We're going to. Yeah. Have some fun. So then, yeah, we're doing the photo shoot and then we're going to come back here. We've got some kind of, I guess like just talking about a bit more in depth about some roles that we have just hired for and preparing for. So we've got six, six new starters to come. Yeah. In the next two months. So really kind of doing some work to make sure that they get off to a really good start and for us they're quite life changing roles. So yeah, kind of preparing the groundwork for that. Another couple of photo shoots and some interviews and just building up some content because we always want these photos of us together and we haven't been able to do that for so long. We. Yeah, sometimes we think about photoshopping each other in, but we don't do that. So we've been rolling off old content for a while. So that. Yeah, a couple of content shoots and then also meeting our team and just spending some time here. So nearly everyone that we have hired, you know, have working in our Australian office. Jess has never met before, so she hasn't even seen our office. And I think just. Just having her here, so much will get done.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And then you'll just roll her into a plane exhausted, and say, go back to London.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Awesome. Becca, you kind of hinted at it there with the growing team, but what's next for yourself and Mustard Maid?
[Voiceover]: Yeah, so a bunch of new teammates and. Yeah, like I said, I'm just so. I think when I started Mustard with Jess, you know, we didn't really have that bigger imagination in terms of where it would go. So it's been. And really a bit of a surprise to us. You know, it wasn't. Maybe. That doesn't sound very inspiring. You know, people always talk about kind of where you're going to be in five years time, and we're kind of like, not really sure. And here we are beyond our wildest dreams and just very grateful to that people want to come and work for Mustard and that our team here don't want to stop working for Mustard. So, yeah, we're really privileged and honored to have such great teams meet. So I think that's. That's a really big thing for us.
Nathan Bush: I think there'll be so many founders and people in E commerce who will just breathe a sigh of relief in hearing that, in going that actually today's pretty good. I'm not too concerned because if we can just keep doing what we're doing, we'll still be happy and we'll still be in a really good place.
[Voiceover]: Totally. Actually, like, a topic that's come up a lot lately is ambiguity and being okay with that. And I think, you know, Covid has certainly taught the world a lesson in living with uncertainty, but actually kind of opening up for possibilities to arise that you. If you know exactly where you're going to go, you're either going to get there or you're not. But if you kind of leave that door open and say, you know, maybe I'll just walk and see where it takes me, you might be surprised. So, although I think, you know, I think, you know, in the kind of entrepreneurial space we talk a lot about having goals, I'm actually a little Bit more like I'm just going to work really hard and keep, you know, keep to my values, keep doing what I want to do. I suppose, for me, like, the reason it's come up lately is in terms of having a team. Sometimes people do like to know where we're going. So that's been. That's been the kind of balance where, like, I don't want mustard to be, like, fixated on, you know, particular goals because things drop into our inbox daily that are better than we could have, you know, strategized about, you know, we couldn't have predicted. Like, recently, we had this amazing opportunity with a Mac and cheese brand that launched in America, and they bought 250 lockers and sent them out to the most. A list of a list, celebrities filled with macaroni cheese boxes. You know, who would have put that in their business plan for the year.
Nathan Bush: That's amazing. Was there any. Did you know about any of the celebrities that they went to?
[Voiceover]: Or do you know Kim Kardashian?
Nathan Bush: No way.
[Voiceover]: Kim Kardashian has a locker. The Rock? Yeah. Like some pretty big A listers. So that's cool. I just. I really thrive off that surprise, you know, that is the joy. If I knew exactly where I was going and I knew exactly what was going to happen. It's kind of like, I don't know, watching a movie when you know the whole plot, it's not the same experience as watching it for the first time. Maybe that's a good analogy for how I like to live, but also kind of learning that when you have a team, we do like to kind of, you know, have some more plan. And so one of the people we're hiring is a marketing manager, which is kind of taking over a lot of the things I've done and putting a bit more structure around it. So I'm genuinely kind of thrilled about that, and I can kind of do a bit more of the fun stuff that I want to be doing and somebody else can kind of put a bit more structure into the business in that sense. So very cool. Kind of formative time for us.
Nathan Bush: But what struck me, and just on that point was that you. You're not rudderless. Like you. The values, the three values that you reeled off, you reeled them off so effortlessly. Like, they are just ingrained in everything that you do. So your team must pick up on that as well. Is that. It's not. We could go anywhere. It's like, no, we've got a mission. We know exactly what we stand for and what we're doing. But we're open to opportunity. So I love that.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, and thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. It's also that, you know, we're not. Maybe it comes back to that kind of risk taking kind of mindset. It's not that I'm just like jumping off cliffs here. You know, I'm taking kind of small and considered steps, but considering each moment and being, you know, I've always tried to be the kind of person that's present and that that's a really kind of key sort of philosophy in my life that, you know, let's do what we're doing really well and that leads to other unexpected things. But it doesn't mean being lazy or it doesn't mean being rudderless or, you know, having no idea about what you want. It's just remaining open and being surprised and giving people the opportunity to surprise themselves. You know, whether it's taking on a new project that they haven't done before, maybe it's something that they're not experienced in. But we want to trust that you're going to learn even in the deep end, you're going to figure it out. And yeah, I think that creates quite a positive kind of culture. I didn't answer your other question though. What else is next?
Nathan Bush: Sorry, I got distracted by macaroni and cheese and Kim Kardashian.
[Voiceover]: We also do have some other colors in the works and some new products. So yeah, we're kind of again, like keeping a really core focus. We have our sort of tagline is pretty and practical. So it's really taking something kind of functional that we know exists. You know, we knew everyone knows what lockers are, but putting our kind of mustard spin on it. So there'll be other products to add to the range that kind of go along with that theme.
Nathan Bush: Awesome. Becca, if people have heard this podcast today and they want to get in touch with yourself or the team at Mustardmade, what's the best way to do that?
[Voiceover]: Definitely come and say hi on Instagram, which is usardmade. There's lots of very colorful lockers going on there and yeah, we'd love to hear from there. Or you can can check us out@mustavemade.com awesome.
Nathan Bush: Thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope you have a brilliant next month with Jess here and can't wait to see what's next.
[Voiceover]: Thank you.
Nathan Bush: Now, apart from giving me an unhealthy craving for Mac and cheese, here are the three lessons I took from my conversation with Becca Number one Paid Sampling. I love the idea of offering customers a sample of a high value purchase before they commit. Becca told us about how they use samples of the materials and the colors that they use on their locker. Now not only does this reduce the risk of unhappy customers, it's a really low cost way to start a one on one relationship. You've got the details, you can contact them directly and if reduces the amount of returns you have to process. If you can preempt a potential issue with your product, potentially paid samples are a way to get ahead of it. Abseiling, not Jumping Taking risks is part and parcel of being an entrepreneur. But I loved Becker's analogy of using an abseiling rope to take the leap rather than a big run up eyes closed leap. Her lesson Take risks but make sure they are measured and you have backups. It's a great way to give you the freedom to approach those big scary ideas. How can you go after them without risking it all? And number three, no more lip service. One of Mustard Maid's core values is honesty and this means they don't say things they don't mean and they think carefully about their messaging to tell it how it it is. It's so easy to fall into the cliche trap, but actually stopping to think if all your little promises that you make along the way are true or accurate and rewording them in your way will open up a much more honest and open relationship with your customers. To get the highlights of today's episode, head on over to add to cart.com and sign up for our our free newsletter each Tuesday we will send Monday's episode summary links and discount codes for you to go next level on. And if you're looking to explore your next e Commerce opportunity, come and visit us at E Suite. We're a dedicated e Commerce talent agency connecting the best e Commerce talent with the fastest growing brands in Australia. Head on over to esweettalent.com where you can download download the free E Commerce Salary Guide and sign up to our weekly e Commerce Job emails. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those customers adding to cart.
