Emma Grasso: I think culture most certainly has to come to Brand DNA. I think taking out the pressure of loyalty and you must cookie cutter with us is yeah, I think you really ought to humanize the chaos and be like, I get it. Working well with others is an underestimated work skill.
Nathan Bush: Hey, it's Nathan Bush or Bushy joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia. I think one of the trickiest things that any founder led e commerce business can go through is actually moving away from the founder into a place where there might be managers or separate teams that aren't necessarily all under the founder's control. And if there was any instance of that transformation, that change, and I can think of no better example of a business who has been through that transition than Culture Kings. We're going to dive into that story today and how they address that transformation, but through a people first lens. I'm sure we all know Culture Kings. They are one of Australia's biggest streetwear and lifestyle brands grown by Simon Beard, who has been on the podcast multiple times now. But they are known for their hype drops, their music and their sport fueled retail experiences. They have eight flagship stores across Australia, New Zealand and in the US and they've really reshaped what retail can be. But beyond the lights, the music and the sneakers, there is a culture that has to evolve at the same pace both in store and in head office. And that's Emma's job. Emma Grasso is the Director of People and Culture at Culture Kings. She's led transformation through hyper growth. She's helped merge founder led creativity with corporate systems and built People first programs that help both retail and e commerce staff thrive through the change. Before Culture Kings, Emma helped scale pedal and puppet and worked across AKA Brand's global portfolio. So she's seen inside multiple e commerce businesses and multiple teams at once. We thought we'd take the time on this very special episode of Add to Cart to focus less so on the technology, but bring us back to the people side because as you founders and you managers know, technology is often within our control. It's the people side that often keeps us awake at night and we probably don't give it enough attention. So in this conversation we talk with Emma about how to scale culture globally without losing what makes your brand unique. We talk about engaging Gen Z employees and try and separate the media hype from actually what they enjoy in work. And we talk about turning training into content that your people actually want to engage with. This isn't just a fluffy HR talk We wanted to dive into some of the tips and the techniques that Emma has to keep her team motivated and performing at the highest level. Massive thanks as always to our friends at Shopify and Klaviyo for powering Add to Cart, not only on this episode, but in all our episodes. Without further ado, let's get into it. Here's my chat with Emma Grasso, director of People and culture at Culture Kings. Emma, welcome to Add to Cart.
Emma Grasso: Thank you so much, Nathan. So good to connect with you.
Nathan Bush: So great to have you here. We were connected by Justin, who's president of Culture Kings here in Australia, and he said, you've got to meet Emma. And in the back of my mind I was like, we just haven't done a people or a culture exploration yet on Add to Cart and I couldn't think of a better business to do it with. And he says that if there's anyone you've got to speak to, it's Emma. So I'm stoked to have you here. Thank you for joining.
Emma Grasso: Thank you so much. Yeah, so excited to talk about the people and culture game and, yeah, he's just been an awesome person to work with. So glad he connected the dots.
Nathan Bush: Well, he's setting you up here because Culture Kings, it's probably the most intimidating name from a HR perspective when you're talking about culture, pretty much putting it out there that you're the best in the world at it when it comes to culture. When people say, and I find this all the time in interviews, can you describe to me the culture there? How do you define culture?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Well, I think culture most certainly has to come to brand DNA. Like, you know, what's the value? What are the purposes? Like, what's, like the competencies that we think are pretty amazing that an employee should really exude. You know, what's that vision? Why are we in the marketplace and why are we doing this? Is probably the best way to explain culture. So in a Culture Kings mindset, the beautiful thing about them is they have such a great tangible DNA. They really focus on music, sport and fashion. And with that, you know, I suppose music, sport and fashion, we consume that on the daily, so it's such a great tangible that everyone can connect with immediately. And with that, I feel like if you're wanting to grow or scale that culture and it's around those three divisibles, you always kind of coming back to the ground zero position together and being like, well, you know, this is why we're here. We're excited to do this. So yeah, I would say culture kind of really has to lean into like what's the brand DNA, what are the brand values and how do we exude that out in the marketplace?
Nathan Bush: So, so do you have to be cool to work there?
Emma Grasso: No, it's, it's, it's wide and varied but I have to admit it seems to be a magnet for cool. There are a lot of very, very cool people walking around for sure. But it's a good mix. It's a good mix.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. I get intimidated walking into your stores. I'm like, I really love the experience and it's amazing experience. I'm like, I'm not cool enough to be here.
Emma Grasso: Oh no. Actually we often get a lot of people from IT and finance and they're so lovely. We'll always send like a bit of an email. Like, you know, you can dress however you like, nice and casual in the office and you know, first day they'll be in like a suit and a tie or maybe like a shirt and chinos and then they look around, they're like, oh, I'm going to come in my Adidas trackies tomorrow. Like, yeah, like so.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome.
Emma Grasso: Casual and cool. So you can be, you can be individual.
Nathan Bush: Okay. So obviously been a lot of change in culture kings over the last, do we call it five years from a founder led business into a growing, maturing business, probably more into the omnichannel world than it was before. How have you seen culture change over that time?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think it's been a pretty interesting ride and exactly what you're saying, I think when you come from a founder led organization, you know, there's a lot more, I suppose, bandwidth to be experimental. But now that we've kind of been acquired by AKA brands, you know, we have a lot more, I suppose, rigor in how we approach scalability. The decisions kind of have to go through a little bit more of a collective of people beforehand. So I quite like the change because it's sort of like a little bit more on growth, scalability. How does that look in the global landscape? And aka, you know, really talk to being an accelerator of making brands, you know, kind of penetrate the American market and then after that the global market. So I suppose for a lot of people the biggest change was like, oh wow, there's so many more cooks in the kitchen kind of looking at how we do things. But with that there's so many benefits because you know, we, we have a global team now. We've got the team in the US so you get a lot more thought partners in the space. And I feel like with the US like they have so such an incredible talent market there because they're just such a bigger country. So there are real like thought leaders in that AKA team that, you know, kind of come to you as a consultant or a thought partner to help you like really think about how to scale globally. So one of their best trips is the supply chain. We get to share with our brand portfolio partners A3PL over there. So it's cost effective for us all to kind of start distributing to customers there. So you start to see exponential growth really quickly. So I would probably say the change management has been a lot because it's a new way of working. But with that there's been just so much more opportunity and other cool parts is, you know, you can have a little bit more like lateral progression. So I came from Petal Pup, one of the other brands and moved across the Colter Kings and I think that's also cool. It's not just vertical progression that you can get. You can kind of be like, oh, like what's our Princess Polin guys doing over there? How are they approaching this? And you have a bit of a think tank around you, which is a really great part of the ride.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. How do you connect all of those teams? So when you've got teams in the US or maybe cross functional cross brand teams, do you have any rituals in place to allow that sharing to happen?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, we've got like quite a few. There's a really great all brands, they call it the all hands kind of meeting. And yeah, we'll get like the CEO from AKA Kiran, he'll kind of host it and then each, our brand president gets to get up and talk about, you know, what they've done in the quarter as a brand. But I love that, that meeting because yeah, you can really start to ask brands like, you know, maybe it's like, ah, Polly did TikTok shop. And then we're like, oh, we're about to look into TikTok shop. Like, you know, how did that go? Like what are you kind of doing in terms of your content building? How much time pressure is it on, you know, content creators? And yeah, you can kind of really pressure test things, which is great. And then within people a bit of
Nathan Bush: an unfair advantage, isn't it to have that inside information across all different brands doing similar things?
Emma Grasso: Totally, totally. Actually it's, it's kind of true. Yeah, they've got that slogan of we're better together. But I got to admit, we really are. Like, you're like, oh, I'm definitely going to pinch that. That's a great idea.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what do you notice in the differences of teams? Can you walk into a Petal and Pop team or a Princess Polly team or a Culture Kings team and go, oh, yeah, it's different. Or does it still feel the same culturally?
Emma Grasso: Oh, Nathan. Night and day difference. It's amazing. And that's what's so cool. Like, I love that each brand has exactly what we're saying. Their own DNA, their own approach to things. So, you know, I kind of came from Petal and Pup, which is like a predominantly female workforce. You know, the customer demographics kind of around that 30, you know, like older, 28 to 30 kind of year old woman. So kind of like, you know, in floral dresses and so there's a lot of pink and beautiful florals and a real cheerleader kind of ethos there. And then, yeah, I came into Culture Kings and there's like trap music playing and what up, fam? Like, you know, just like straight up, I was like, I felt like I was Alice in Wonderland. First. I'm like, oh, man. Like, I got to get a really wide wardrobe here where I can wear my girly dresses and then like fully, then come in, like fully in street wear and.
Nathan Bush: Oh, that's cool. What made you make the change over? What was it that inspired you to. To move to that whole new different way?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I've sort of come a little from streetwear. Like, I worked at INCU for quite some time.
Nathan Bush: Oh, I love Doug and the team.
Emma Grasso: Got Doug and the team. They're the best. Yeah, yeah, they were awesome. So, yeah, I worked there for about seven years when I was.
Nathan Bush: So you've been cool forever. You're. You're all right.
Emma Grasso: It's just the brands that I connect to. It's the halo effect of cool. I'm just a good customer. That's. That's why cool.
Nathan Bush: You're just there for the staff discounts.
Emma Grasso: I like, always, we always joke that, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm circulating my pay straight back into the company. Like, thank you for paying me and here's my money back.
Nathan Bush: Here it is back. Thank you. I'll take your clothes literally. What was the moment that you were like, I've got to make that move.
Emma Grasso: It was pretty amazing. It was an invitation really, by AKA they were just sort of. I suppose it was a similar trajectory that Petal had just done. Where the founder had left and, you know, we were kind of working alongside AKA and so it was really a part of that, that change management piece, you know, straight after the founder had left and how do we look at the new horizon? So, yeah, it was pretty cool. AKA just approached me and said, hey, you know, Culture Kings is going through the same thing. You know, would you consider coming across. And for a while it was shared services, which was great. So really being able to kind of, yeah. Kind of connect with them and understand like, you know, the situation of change management and, you know, it's.
Nathan Bush: And when you talk shared services, for anyone who's never worked in this model, we had this at Super Retail Group and I was shared services. And I know it comes with its challenges and its opportunities as well, but at that point, were you shared services around people, tech and other things, or was it just a people shared services?
Emma Grasso: It was just for people. Yeah, services, which was great. So, yeah, that went for quite some time, but then after a while it was kind of decided a little bit on the Culture King side. Hey, I think we kind of need you here full time. Which I was sort of like, kind of true. At this point in time, it's probably great to just sort of be 100% to really embed the change. So, yeah, I think it was around nine months of shared services, nearly a year, just shy of a year. And then made the move over to Streetwear all day.
Nathan Bush: Cool. So when it came to that massive change, what was the biggest challenge for you from a people perspective, where did you start?
Emma Grasso: I think, I suppose really getting everyone on the journey of change is probably the hardest part. So I think for me, I kind of looked at it and I said, I've really got to guarantee the trust of everyone here. Like, I'm sort of probably the face of change right now. I've come from another AKA brand, you know, so I really took a moment to kind of really get to know the team and just say, hey, I know what do to this moment feels like and it's a bit unsettling and I get everything kind of feels a little upside down, but I've kind of. I've done this before and we're going to hold hands and get this happening. So I kind of asked, you know, around, like, I had moments to just meet up with people in meetings, a lot of the managers and senior managers first, but then hit the ground, you know, just meet the people on the floors. And I thought, you know, with people and culture, you got to do a lot of I think front you do a lot in the background that people don't know about. Often, yeah, kind of thought, well, these are the things that we'll have to do is more the front facing stuff. So having a presence, you know, being communicative. So I kind of started up a couple of rituals like you kind of said immediately, which was Weekly Slack blasts. We kind of all connect on Slack. I noticed that was the most engaging platform for everyone. And I think what a lot of people were saying is we just, it's a new land. We used to have, you know, an amazing president like Simon, who's such an orator who gets everyone to with every day. So it was like, how do we communicate now in a new land? And I thought kind of true. Like there's so many business updates going on and people stuff. So every week I, I still do it. It's called the weekly Slack blast and it's like a notification. It does shout outs to people. But it was great, you know, hearing people's side hustle stories even. We got a podcast. Like there's so many that are like prolific, like music side hustle gigs and stuff. So you know, you kind of, I was mixing like, hey, there's a new person starting. They're going to start in the IT team. This is a bit about them. You know, these are things happening in the office. But did everybody know that so and so is in a rock band and like fully got like, you know, just a little, oh, hey, check out this podcast that you know, so and so is doing. And I think that started to marinate with everyone. Like, hey, we're in this together. It's made up of individuals and you know, just learning about each other a little bit more. So yeah, first strategy was yeah, connect and communicate. Then second strategy is really taking people on the ride of change. You know, what does a program that's nice and standardized and stabilizing for everything everyone look like? Why processes can be supportive infrastructure as well.
Nathan Bush: I could imagine there's lots of people, a lot of specialists in there, especially under a founder culture. And Simon is just one of those lightning in a bolt founders where he let the good people go and back their ideas and let that happen. And then all of a sudden you're saying, look, we don't have a Simon anymore. We're kind of one team and we're all responsible for it. We're taking this forward and there's a bit more process and there's a, you know, we're coming together on this. I could imagine that There'd be some people like, that's not for me. I'm out. Did you find that those people self identified or was there work to be done as you switch? Because the reason I'm asking is because I think a lot of businesses are going through this, especially online businesses who grew to a certain point and now are going different channels, getting bigger, more diverse teams, maybe international teams and are going through this change. So it's like, do you let people self identify out or do you actually have to manage that change?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think it's a mix of both. And natural attrition is always going to happen with change. And I think every business kind of knows, hey, you know, with change management people will probably stick around for six months. You know, they're kind of like, what's the new normal? And then you probably see once change gets implemented that there's probably a six month time frame where you'll start seeing natural attrition. But the good thing when people self appoint is I always normalize it. Hey, it's a job and like you have the best resume and we are going to give you a glowing reference because it is so fine to be like, this is my stop. This just isn't me. And I think you've really got to normalize. That's the natural order. That's a career is a build a bear, you know, like adventure like. And I think taking out the pressure of loyalty and you might day and you must cookie cutter with us is yeah, I think you really ought to humanize the chaos and be like, I get it.
Nathan Bush: I love that because I always talk about careers in terms of. And this is just because I'm a bogan around football contracts because players sign for two or three years and it's kind of similar to what we see in jobs. You see two or three years and then you make. There's always that natural spot where people have that moment of do I want to do this again? Like you get to that two or three year itch and you're like, am I sticking around? And then you kind of recommit again and that's totally normal. How do you define then loyalty from both sides? I guess. And how far does loyalty go in an employer employee relationship?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think loyalty is when you're in the team and you're in the game, you're doing your best, you're doing the best to your team members around you. You're doing your best for your career progression, you're doing the best for the business. But I think loyalty Remains when you leave. Like we were talking about Inku pedal and putt. They're like forever. I love those jobs. I, I didn't leave them because I was unhappy at all. I just, you know, it was a natural end for me as well. Maybe a bigger career opportunity, location change, whatever it is. And I'm still wildly loyal to those guys, you know, like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, pull them on the sidelines. So I think loyalty can definitely extend post the life of your employment with a business. And again, I just feel like, yeah, we've got to normalize that. That a business doesn't owe you anything thing other than like, well, I mean it does. It owes a lot. It owes a lot of.
Nathan Bush: While you're there, while you're there, you're both committed to it. But there is obviously change that's going to happen and that's okay.
Emma Grasso: Totally. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Am I assuming that a majority of your workforce might be younger than other businesses?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, we do have like there is a wider portion most certainly when you look at the retail demographics, they keep us nice and young like our retail stores, which is true. So yeah, we definitely have a wider demographic between the ages of 18 to 28 is a big part of our workforce. And then you've got your 30s and they're a lot more in the HQ. Then you've got your higher age groups as well smattered around, not as big.
Nathan Bush: And so you're in a great position then to give us some insights around motivations for. Do we call them Gen Zs? Are they still Gen Zs at that age? We hear a lot, media love beating it up that they're so different, that they have high expectations, high standards. I always look at it with a grain of salt because I'm like, I remember what I was like as an 18 year old. I was nothing like I am today. And what are your observations around the younger generation of the workforce coming through? Are they actually different to what you and I might have been like when we were their age?
Emma Grasso: I'm with you. I think you've always got to unpick exactly what you're saying. When you're younger you are a bit more susceptible to. Well, sometimes it's their first job sometimes. So you've got to give them a lot of slack because it's like, hey, it's a professional workplace and it's sort of a little different from probably other realms that they're coming from. But my observations are you, they're just so used to information all the time and it's quick and it's fast and they kind of just need information. And if you can get them on board with the information prior the tampering or touching too much, they're pretty much on board. I definitely would say they're a lot more connected to the macro effects of the world. Like I think, you know, they have a very strong social conscience and they that from a business and I think that's a really important thing to maintain with them to showcase that. You're always keeping that front and center as well for them. But I think they're great. I think every generation offers such a great piece of the pie and you can kind of mutually respect what each generation can offer. That's when you really capitalize on the best juice from every age demographic.
Nathan Bush: I love that. I love your point there around bite sized information and giving it to them when they want it, when they need it. I remember being in corporate, you know, having to do those mandatory modular training where you look at some really dodgy cartoon pictures and you've got to answer multiple choice questions and you've got to sit down for two hours to get through the modules, otherwise you won't get your bonus. What kind of communication methods have you seen really work and cut through? Especially with that retail demographic who might not be in there full time. Like how do you get your messages across? So they land.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, so true. We have really great like digital outputs. Like especially what you're saying learning and development is. Yeah, it can be so corporate and so boring. So we generate a lot of our own training which is really good. So it's, you know, a familiar face doing the training and we'd like to do a lot of like hype reels like you probably see with Culture Kings. It's a lot of hype reels around on our Instagram and, and all of that. So we kind of do hype reels with a little bit of the learning and development. So it's kind of cool. We're doing a new one right now where we're getting some of the best sellers, the top talent in the retail stores to kind of go through selling standards in the store. So we're sort of seeing short sharp videos are always the best way to go about it. Like nothing too lengthy, nothing too, too much of a time burden I suppose is probably the best way to cut through.
Nathan Bush: So you're almost treating your training materials like a social platform essentially.
Emma Grasso: Yeah. And I think we want to keep doing it that way. There's some stuff that's dry that you're like, I can't mess this up. We've just got to talk about it in a very formal fashion. But yeah, things like selling standards, you know, we're doing a brand reset soon. And yeah, it's just kind of cool to be like, yeah, let's make it like a film clip. Like, let's make it really engaging and like, yeah, reflect what we do on our platforms, Instagram, like, do all that, but in a training format. I think another exciting thing is looking at AI capability with like, I don't know if you've seen, but, you know, learning languages now. It has an AI person that can talk with you. And yeah, so we're like, oh, because, you know, you've always got to do a bit of a pop quiz, especially for compliance, like in this scenario, blah, blah, blah.
Nathan Bush: So talk us before we go down this path because I think this is a really fascinating path. Talk us through learning languages for those who might not have come across that.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, so, like, if you're like learning a foreign language, I don't know if you've seen a lot of this. I mean, I'm a lover of speaking other languages, you know, had to learn, you know, through very old school kind of methods. But there's all this new technology where it has an AI teacher with you and it's conversating with you. So you might be trying to say a sentence in Spanish and the AI teacher is having that conversation and making you. Yeah. Pronounce the words properly and not making you. So, like, look at it as a script. And they kind of say, when you're learning languages, it's a lot more visceral and it's sinks in more when you're not reading off a script when it
Nathan Bush: is live, which is why we learn better when we're actually in countries than trying to learn it before you go. Because you're getting the emotion and everything in the context behind everything.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, exactly. It's really cool kind of seeing all of that data coming through. And so we've already been kicking that around a little of like, how do we capitalize on AI for our learning and development? Like, you know, how cool would it be that instead of it's like, tick this pop quiz after that it could be some sort of really interactive learning where it can kind of really embed the learning for them.
Nathan Bush: Are there any tools that you've come across in that AI space that you're really loving, even if you haven't implemented them properly yet, that you're experimenting with that you think show huge potential with changing how we train our teams?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think most certainly the learning and development space is going to have a real interesting shake up. So I've got a real keen interest in that. Other AI angles. There's also recruitment as well, which interesting. So I think, you know, when you're kind of screening a lot of people and it's just sort of getting a litmus test of how they're going, they can do it a little bit more automatedly now where it's not like somebody has to sit in and do the screening questions. The questions get sent to them digitally, they get to film it in the comforts of their own time and then you kind of get that first interview digitally sent to you.
Nathan Bush: That's interesting. I've been on a few Reddit threads lately, which is not always the best place to get your information, but talking, debating about this actually, like going for first interviews and having a digital interview where there's actually no humans and some people are like, actually it's really good because there's no time wasted. I know what I've got to answer. I'm in the comfort of my home. It's great. Works for me, works for them. Other people are like, well, if they can't take the time to meet with me, I'm not going to meet with them. How do you balance it?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, it's so true. I think it's a really tricky, uncharted territory, isn't it, for all of us. I think if we do employ a little bit more of that automation, we get to see more people quickly. Because if you think about, oh, if I have to sit into like seven interviews, that's probably seven hours, you know, that's a full day of work sometimes. So I think sometimes when you can kind of see it as we're probably going to be seeing more people through using that automation than us manually doing it at all times. Then of course, the second, third interview we'd always wanted in person, on site, you know, walking around, leading the team. But that screen test, it's almost like I would see it as an added advantage for people. Hey, you get to make your resume speak a little.
Nathan Bush: I was about to say it's better than relying on a cover letter that doesn't get read and a resume that doesn't really represent you. Are you a cover letter reader? I'm going to put that to you.
Emma Grasso: Gosh. Depends a little on the role. If we're finding it hard, I would say on average, I don't really read that many, because it can take a lot of time. But if we're finding it hard, I love to look at the resume and, yeah, just really see their trajectory more so than anything, because I feel like you get that in the interviews, like, you get the nugget to really talk through that. But if we are having a little bit of trouble finding the right candidate, then I would definitely move to cover letters and really see it. But I wouldn't say it's the primary thing that I'm looking at. I think that would be a secondary support.
Nathan Bush: Yes.
Emma Grasso: Kind of paper.
Nathan Bush: When I was in recruitment, I used to love cover letters purely just because of what it told me about the person, like whether they put personality into it or whether you could tell that they were, like, trying to be all professional and, like, putting heaps of buzzwords in it. I'm like, not necessarily what you put in there, but how you approach a cover letter tells me a lot about you. And you can pick that up pretty quickly without reading the whole thing. What's the secret to a good resume, then?
Emma Grasso: Oh, I think the secret to a good resume is, I feel like for us, because we get so many applications, which is so awesome, like, to cut through it, I think when it's formatted in a compelling manner, you know, where I'm like, oh, great, I can see like a blurb at the top. Like, I can see a summary, I can see their trajectory of what they've done is always like, the first thing I'm, oh, this is so easy to read and digest. But then secondly, of course, you're kind of looking at, oh, what sort of industry experience have they got? You know, what brands have they been with? But I have to admit, I kind of also like. I know what you mean. I like the summary because it's. You're kind of looking for attributes as well, aren't you?
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emma Grasso: A little bit of personality flavour, but I feel like it can be done in a nice summary at the top is probably the best way to go about it for me.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. So really treat that resume from your perspective as some sort of summary, some sort of personality paragraph, couple of sentences, whatever it is. But you're really looking for that career trajectory, that career story that you can see come through. And I suppose that would be hard, though, if you've got people who are 18, 19, 20 looking for their first jobs. Right.
Emma Grasso: That's true. Yeah. That's a different tactic altogether, for sure. See, that's when you probably would look to a bit of the COVID letters you know, where it's like, okay, I need to look for another support here to kind of get more information.
Nathan Bush: Anyone who's had a personal trainer knows that whatever targets who you set them, they're going to raise them. So when Nutrition Warehouse looked to engage Klaviyo, it wasn't just about sending emails effectively. They tasked them with increasing revenue, driving awareness and building customer lifetime value. It's a spicy set. But Klaviyo, they were up for the challenge. By creating the right email flows triggered by customer actions, using geotargeting for their 110 stores and using predictive analytics, they prove proved that they were up for the challenge. Smashed it in fact with a 47% year on year increase in placed order rate on email flows and a Klaviyo Roi of 50 times, Nutrition Warehouse remain ahead of the pack. To explore how Klaviyo can grow your e commerce business and see more case studies, visit klaviyo.com au yeah, being a passion led business like you talked about before, music, sport, fashion, how important is it that you see those attributes as part of the lifestyle of people that want to come into the business? And I'm going to share a story here and I'm not sure if I've shared this before on the podcast, but when I first applied for Super Retail Group and obviously they've got House of Brands, Super Cheap, Auto, bcf, Rebel, Sport, all very different but very passion based businesses. I got to the last interview which was with Peter Bertles the CEO and made it through all the other interviews. And then I remember right at the end he's like, so I just got to ask you a couple of questions, that's fine. He's like, are you into your cars? Do you love, love your car? And I'm like, nah, I couldn't, couldn't care less about a car. Like honestly gets me from here to there. Like no interest at all. So okay, well do you like camping, fishing, that kind of stuff? I'm like, no, I'm like a hotel. Give me a hotel any day. I'm just not that person. And he's like, all right, well do you like your sport? I'm like, I love sport. Like I'll follow, I'll play, whatever. He's like, well you're very lucky because if you said no to the last one, I don't think we could have you here. So you ticked one of the three boxes. From a passion perspective, is that important for you that you have people come into the team who kind of like you know similar music are interested in fashion as well.
Emma Grasso: I don't know if it's so much the, the likes like I've worked in companies, I'm like oh I'm probably that's I'm not their customer but I can add so much value. So yeah, I don't know if I would be too swayed by the interest but most certainly like I suppose their workplace attributes or their approach to things like I think you know E commerce and retail it's ever changing, it's so rapidly. You know it's a fast paced kind of environment. So I think for me I'd be looking for things like you know how flexible they are to change. Are they self starters? Are they okay with innovation? Like I think they would be more the attributes. Yeah kind of leaning on a little I suppose our brand values which is like we look for innovation. You know it's a full forward like kind of situation like just experiment, give it a go kind of thing. I think is a really great mindset to have. So I think it's more those attributes more so than interests.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So mindset especially when it comes to E comm and digital a lot of our listeners will be in this space and recruiting constantly and I know most E comm operators and founders recruiting is not something they enjoy at all because it's high stakes, high time and it's just tricky right? Like you're always self doubting yourself all the time because you get such a limited time with this person that you're paying a lot of money and you're putting such big hopes in. When you said then around you're looking for mindsets like being able to be innovative, being able to adapt with change, being a self starter. How do you test that in? Say you've got two or three interviews. Do you have any kind of go to questions or activities that you do to try and get inside that mindset in a short amount of time?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think there are, you know I really I love recruitment. I think it's one of my favorite parts of the people.
Nathan Bush: You're a sicko.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I really like it because well one you get to meet, you get to one year professional connects and like there have been some people that I'm like oh man, they didn't get it but I'm not going to forget them, I'm not going to forget that resume. And I tell you what, there's been times where I'm like hey remember you said to give you a call if a role came up that was perfect for you. The time is now, you know, sort of thing. So I kind of see it as a really great opportunity to just keep meeting with professional connects with or without the success of getting that job. And I think when you have that open mindset of like, this person could fill it another gap at another time is also in the back of my mind.
Nathan Bush: You're putting the jigsaw pieces together, literally.
Emma Grasso: Yeah. Which is always good. But yeah, I love it too because there's so many different departments. Like if we're interviewing for it or finance, you know, you're going to be swinging a little bit more to the hard skill kind of questions of like, can they kind of do do the things? And then, yeah, there's the soft skills after, but then there's other departments like marketing and merchandise and you know, that just has a really different kind of interview cadence and approach. But yeah, I most certainly will ask questions. I quite like the experiential questions and I know they're like, oh no, give me your time. But you know, it could almost be too like, oh, like think of a scenario. Like, how would you go about this? I think when you kind of offer people real life examples of them talking through their approach or their process is. Is where I feel like you can really find the source in things.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I'm the same. I'm interviewing at the moment for some roles actually in New York for a client that I'm working with and I don't know the market that well, like nowhere near as well as I know Australia. So when they reference all the companies that they've worked with, I recognize a lot of the big ones, but then some of the small to mid clients, small to mid companies they're working at, I don't know, I don't have a lot of background, but being able to frame it in those questions of. All right, say you're in this situation and we now need to shift our social media presence from this to this. How would you go about it? Talk me through your thinking process and almost map it out. And so it's almost like you, you're workshopping in an interview rather than questioning.
Emma Grasso: Agreed. Yeah, I completely agree with you. I love those questions. And you know, like I was sort of saying you're going off script, then, you know, you kind of like, oh, I don't have the stats and figures of my achievements. It's more like, yeah, how. How would you approach in this scenario? Like, yeah, how do you apply yourself as a person within this?
Nathan Bush: Yeah, always good how are you finding the E commerce and digital talent market at the moment? Are you finding that when roles do come up that you get a lot of applicants, that they're easy to fill, or are you finding that there's not a lot out there?
Emma Grasso: Oh, my goodness. I tell you what, there are some roles that it's like, oh man, it's slim pickings. Like, you know, and I think with E commerce too, there's just so many different titles, like technology will change and then a whole vocation like stream changes with it. So I would probably say it's definitely growing in Australia, which I'm loving. And for a while there it was a little tough to recruit talent. You know, we're based in Brisbane, our hq, and for a long, a long time, you know, we had a lot of head offices. A lot of fashion companies are definitely down south in Sydney and Melbourne. And, you know, sometimes if you're interviewing candidates, it would be a bit of a hard sell to say, hey, we're kind of based here. The preference would be up here. But I feel like there's been such a shift. Like, I feel like Queensland's like having its time in the sun. The recruitment pool is so much more open because there's so many people that are really dying to move up post coast, which has been such an advantage for us. So I've seen a real swing post Covid on how much better the talent pool is because there's a lot of people really open to migrating up here. And as a result, there's a lot of great head offices. Like, there's a lot of awesome fashion houses that are opening up within Brisbane. It's a real growing market. So I would say it's definitely gotten easier probably in the last five years. But in saying that there are some roles that are just so niche and it's a little tricky. There are some specifically, I'd say, in digital performance are always a little trickier to land within our landscape with more
Nathan Bush: talent coming into the market. Culture Kings already has a great brand, but that brand has evolved over time. Do you have to do much in terms of employee brand to tell people, hey, this is who we are, this is what we're about. Like, even in terms of the scale and the size and the markets you're in, like, you're not a business that stands still. Do you have an employee branding kind of initiative?
Emma Grasso: I think that's definitely evolving. Like, we're definitely doing a little reset and I think because we've kind of come out of a fair bit of change. It had been a little hard to define it, but I feel like we're at that point now where I'm like, oh, great, yeah, we can really start to define what that new land looks like and approach it quite strategically now. But for a while it was a little insular. We had to sort of remake the source, I think a little, but it's definitely ready to get socialized.
Nathan Bush: I'm keen to know from you, Emma, how do you stay motivated? How do you continue your learning and upskilling? Like, given that you've obviously been in this sector for a while now, petal and pop into culture kings, same global brand, how do you stay motivated and pushing yourself further? Do you have anything that you. You challenge yourself with to keep going?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think I get really inspired by the company and what they're standing for and the people around me. So I always laugh. I always talk about reverse mentorship as well. Like we were sort of saying, the Gen Zs, they've got a wealth of knowledge on what's cool, what's, what's trending, how do they like to be communicated with sort of things? So I feel like I'm always being connected to the team, always been connected to where we're driving. Always inspires me, like, oh, okay, we're evolving. We're really moving into this as an area. I love a good survey. So I.
Nathan Bush: You're that person, you're the one sending the surveys.
Emma Grasso: But yeah, we do like a great annual survey and I build a lot of our strategy on feedback from the team, which is awesome.
Nathan Bush: But just on that point, what are you sending that survey? So is it going out once every year?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, it's a big one. It's once a year. And it's everything. It's about their sense of belonging, their engagement, how their work relationships are, how their manager relationship is. It's like a lot of micro. How's their team going? But then macro. How's the business going for you? I really love it. It really gives a lot of great intel. And from that, I love it too, because it really leans to how do you want to be rewarded? How do you want to be recognized? Why don't we score well here? How can we do this better? And so after that we do little forums, we get little coalition.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, coalitions.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, like, okay, like. And then we'll say, hey, we did great in these scores, which is awesome. What are the major call outs that you think we're doing well here and then we're not doing so well in These scores, what can we do? And everyone think tanks and throws it in and then we embed it into our strategy. So I think, you know, continuous improvement and learning for the environment internally is really important.
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Emma Grasso: Simple.
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Emma Grasso: You are so right. Yeah. Every time we do something, I always start with you spoke and we listened. Is because of the full survey.
Nathan Bush: Yes.
Emma Grasso: Reinforcing it. But it truly does come from that, which is.
Nathan Bush: And are you running them through like a culture amp or are you creating them yourself?
Emma Grasso: We're really lucky. We've got a pretty good hris, so we do it through through our own internal hris.
Nathan Bush: Awesome. It's a really good ritual to get into. Love it. Do you do anything around 360 degree reviews, like, especially for senior managers? Because I've done that process a few times and I always love it. But it's always very confronting to get feedback from those above you in your team, in other departments, to hear it unfiltered from those all around you. Do you do them?
Emma Grasso: Oh yeah, we do. And I'm with you. Like I kind of always say feedback is a gift. And we gotta keep reminding ourselves of that because. Because it's an invitation to just look at an opportunity of getting better kind of thing. But yeah, we most certainly in the first six month probation, if there's a senior leadership team member that's joined at the halfway mark of their probation, we'll send it out, you know, to everybody just to sort of see, hey, you know, you still got a couple of months let's, you know, what's, what's the team feeling and how do we get you to being optimum and being the best?
Nathan Bush: So a360 at your three month mark. There you go, straight in.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, but it's kind of for the upper levels, not for. Yeah, it's a little bit. We're really touching a lot of strategy and a lot of cross functional collaborators. We just see it as an opportunity of like, hey, how's it, how's it going out there Kind of thing. But it's always dealt with very empathetically and we understand too perceptions and you know, intentions can be different. You know, someone's intention of how they're exuding themselves might be met with a different perception. So it's only when you start seeing maybe trends where it's like, oh, there's a collective response here. But it's kind of like, hey, it's a choose your own adventure. You know, that feedback, you can take it on and really fly with it. We're seeing this as the opportunity, but also too, you know, if you're like, oh, I want to work about this in a different way. You know, we let them make that decision but we kind of guide them on what we think is the best opportunity and how we can kind of, you know, help them get there, help them get to that point.
Nathan Bush: I think you're absolutely right. It's usually the most honest and direct way to get the feedback that you need. So I love when people take it on the themselves to go, oh, I'm a bit stuck here. I'm just not unsure I'm going to initiate a 360 degree on myself.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think that's so brave. We also, for annual reviews, we also do it and it's a little bit. If you have a lot of cross collaboration points, you don't have to be a senior leadership team member. We might do a360 there where it's like, hey, you're touching lots of team. How's it going? So yeah, it's done very empathetically though. But I get you, they can be tough, can't they?
Nathan Bush: I think it's all in our heads, right? Like we no one. You say feedback's a gift. No one really likes feedback. But in the long term, in the long term it's actually the most helpful thing you can get. But in the moment you're like, I just want to do it my way.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, it's so true. Well, Pulse surveys are great for us too. It's like Sometimes we're scoring, but I'm like, but how much? I mean, I've tried so hard. Like, I totally get it. But I suppose that's how you evolve, isn't it, really? It's sort of like, yeah, how's it really landing with everyone is. It's. It's nice to be aware.
Nathan Bush: It is based on everything you've seen. Like you said, you speak to so many people every day who are. And having career conversations constantly. Out of the top performers that you've seen or worked with, can you name two or three attributes that you see continually succeed in where people want to go? Like, what are the most important attributes to keep in mind for your career, do you think?
Emma Grasso: I read this quote and I completely agree with it. It said, working well with others is an underestimated world work skill. And I truly agree with that. I think if you have the gift of collaborating well with people in a way that's supportive, you're on side with them, you're seeing each other as a team, and you're really trying to kick that ball into the goal at the same place in the same time, I think is a really excellent measure of success. So I think being able to collaborate with your team is. It's really, I think, vital for success in a lot of ways.
Nathan Bush: I had this dad moment the other day. We were packing up to go on holidays. And this does have a point, it's related to your point, but I had this moment where Sarah and I were rushing around the house to get things in the car and the kids had stuff everywhere. It was pure dad moment. And I was like, guys, get off your butt. Come and help pack the car, get your stuff sorted, get your room cleaned. And then we're sitting in the car on the way to the holiday. So this is a great way to start the holiday. And I was like, guys, if I could give you one bit of advice, if you just want to have a good life and a good career, just be helpful. Just find a way to be helpful. And I was like, God, if I was listening to me as a kid, I'd like, shut up. Go, like, turn the music up. But, like, it was just one of those moments where I was like, you could be highly skilled, you could be lowly skilled, but if you just find ways to be helpful, you'll usually find your way through. And I get that people come from different levels of privilege and all that plays a part, but being helpful, I think, is a really important skill to what you were saying.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I'm really With you on that, you can have all the hard skills and proficiencies in the world. But yeah, if you're, if you're finding it hard to work with your team or you know, your manager or like, you know, you're not finding that resolution to be like, hey, how do we. And my personality is the tricky. I mean we all know that for sure. But it's the workaround. It's sort of like being like, how do we make this better for both of us?
Nathan Bush: Yeah. So apart from being a team player, any other attributes that have stood out for you?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I think in E commerce specifically, I think you do have to have an agility mindset. I just feel like E commerce is kind of built on disruptive. Like supply chains can change in the blink of an eye. Platforms just get birthed and yeah, like we're saying, it just sort of can really change the strategy, you know, consumer behavior and just change. So I think when people are really flexible in E commerce of like, how do we pivot? Okay, you know, let's move to the, the next thing I think is also really helpful. I think too when you're a company that's growing or scaling up, being agile, like, oh, we used to do it this way, can kind of really trap people. And it's like it did and it worked and that's awesome. But it's an organism and we gotta keep growing and like, you know, litmus testing if it's still being a successful approach and if not, it's okay to let it go and we think of a new way kind of thing.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel there's such a strong tie between agility and empathy as well. Because there's like that thing like if you've been a leader, it's about when you're delivering news, you go actually suddenly all of a sudden we've got to change the direction or we've got to change strategy or there's something I'm throwing plate because it's urgent, we got to do it. And then you kind of get the death stares or you get the grumpiness and you're like, just, this isn't necessarily all my decision. Just have a. You know what I mean? And then it goes the other way as well. To go as a leader, you've got to understand that you've just disrupted their day and that they thought something was going to happen. So there's a little bit of two way empathy that goes with agility for it to work well, and it's not always a skill that's easy to have.
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, you're so right. It has to be done with that human approach, like. Yeah, with that. I get it. It's. It's a bit tricky, but we've got to batten down, do this well.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Emma, thank you so much. It's been so fun to nerd out on the people side of E commerce with you. What's next for you and the Culture Kings team? What's the next 12 months hold for you?
Emma Grasso: Yeah, I mean, there are so many exciting things going on in Culture Kings. I'm really excited for 2026. Yeah, we've kind of done a bit of a brand reset, which is really exciting. So, like, we were kind of touching on refining brand values is going to be a really big one inside the game on how we kind of approach every aspect of the business, quite honestly. So that's really exciting. But in the next 12 months, we're kind of excited. I think a lot of change. I think these are the last parts of a lot of our change management this year and maybe next year it'll be a bit more of a nothing
Nathan Bush: will change ever again set in stone from here on in. But the big change. The big change, you're right.
Emma Grasso: I think the foundational work has happened and now it's almost like the trimming things get to kind of be added next year.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. I'm so excited for you. It's so great to see a brand like Culture Kings continue the amazing work that Simon did as a founder to get to where it is and now evolve into its new form and its new presence and continue that growth not just here in Australia, but all over the world. So love seeing it. Emma, it sounds like you're doing a fantastic job with the team. Thank you for sharing your insights on everything, people and everything Culture Kings today.
Emma Grasso: Such a pleasure, Nathan, thank you.
Nathan Bush: There was always going to be a big promise when you called Culture Kings to come in and tell us about Culture, but I think Emma did a fantastic job of explaining some of the techniques and the tools that she uses when both recruiting and engaging their team. And she was really honest with the true trials and tribulations of managing a workforce that's constantly changing and it's adapting to where the business needs to go. And I really appreciated that. Here are three lessons that I think any business can take out of that conversation. Number one was teaching like a marketer. I think we've all been through them. The boring L and D modules, where we're forced to sit through some really bad either acting or PowerPoints or just boring text in order just to tick a tick box. That obviously isn't going to work for a workforce like Culture Kings. So Emma's approach of treating L and D as social media, I think is really interesting. If we put all this effort into entertaining our customers, are we doing the same to entertain our employees when they're doing some really critical learning that will impact hundreds, if not thousands of customers as well? So when we're thinking about important messages or important lessons that we need our team to understand, don't just type it out or put it in a notion document. Think about how you would want to engage with it. There's absolutely no reason to make it boring. It doesn't have to be a huge production. As Emma said, even having some of the team present it on video with faces that they know and they trust made a huge difference. I think that's a great tip. Number two, the annual survey feedback. It does sound big business, it does sound corporate, but is so important to have a ritual where every year you are getting data that you can compare year on year on how people feel, whether they are achieving, whether they're engaged and be able to compare it year on year. Now, there's two results that you want to get out of these. There's obviously the results of the survey that you want to understand what the engagement levels are in your organization. But the other thing that you're driving towards is actually an engagement rate for the survey itself. If you're only getting 10 to 20% of your workforce completing the survey, it is not a true representation. You actually can't take a lot of action from it. So there is a trick about getting that input year after year, and that means that you've got to take action and you've got to communicate after the survey is done. It means saying, to Emma's point, yes, we hear you, you spoke, we listened, here's what we're going to do. And I love Emma's idea of getting coalitions around to take action and to brainstorm ideas to lift those survey results even further. Last year, by showing the team that you're taking this seriously and that things will change in response to the feedback that they've given one, you're going to get more people engaging next year because it's going to be worthwhile for them and they're probably going to be more honest and forthright with their responses, knowing that it will have an Impact really important. And the third thing that I was surprised at by Emma's forthrightness around was bringing AI into the hiring process. Now Emma was really forthright around saying that yes, in the first round of interviews on some positions we use digital pre screening interviews where there isn't a human from our side present. It means that they get to interview more candidates, they get a better understanding of who they are and then they can spend more time in the in person section. Second and third interviews. I know there's two schools of thought here and you've got to do what's comfortable for you and your business but if you are actually struggling to get through all your potential candidates in unearthing those diamonds amongst all the applications you get, then leaning on AI and leaning on digital for those pre screening questions will actually be a lot better than relying on CVS and resumes alone. Obviously know the risks associated but don't be too scared scared of changing up your hiring process if you need to scout wider for talent using digital tools. That's it for Add to CART this week. I hope we've kind of given you pause to think a little bit more around team, around hiring, even around your own career trajectory and what that looks like. I love Emma's point of around that we're all in a state of flux, that careers aren't forever, that loyalty is a thing, but it's not necessarily your law to one employer for life life. I think they're all really important messages and Emma does a great job of framing it up from a human perspective. Now if you want to discuss any of this, jump on over to the Add to CART community. It's free to join. We've got over 500 e commerce professionals in there and it's a great place to discuss anything that you've heard today, especially around maybe hiring techniques, how you get feedback from teams, learning and development programs. All those sort of things hit others up in the Add to CART community to get get their ideas and share problems. It's better solved together. The other thing we've got there is a little section called Open to Work. So there are some great people in there that are saying that hey, I'm ready to work or I've got positions ready, come in and check that out. We'd love to see you in there. Head on over to add to car.com to join that community for free. Also, if you're listening on Spotify, Apple or on YouTube and you liked what you heard today, make sure you hit that, that subscribe button. We're going to bring you episodes every week with new ideas and new innovations in ecommerce, and we'd love to bring them to you. Hit subscribe and we'll see you next.
Emma Grasso: One.
