Kira Macleod-Finke: A three month re platform of a site with over 1500 pages and nearly a thousand SKUs is achievable for mere mortals.
[Voiceover]: Just don't say his name, otherwise people will try and poach him.
Kira Macleod-Finke: What do you think I'm not doing? They're the two words convenience and relevance. You know that keep me up at night. Welcome to ADD to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Here's your host, Bushy Foreign.
Nathan Bush: Welcome back to ADD to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast for e commerce professionals who never stop learning. My name is Bushi and I'm joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia. Now what would you do if your entire e commerce site had to be rebuilt in 14 days? And that's with nearly 1000 SKUs and over 1500 pages. That's what a huge task. Today I am joined by Kira MacLeod Fink, head of Direct to Consumer at the Body Shop Australia. With an amazing leadership background at leading retail brands such as T2, Country Road and Trennery, Kira now oversees the entire D2C function across retail and digital for over 130 Body Shop stores across Australia and New Zealand. In the past 18 months, Kira has led the business through two global buyouts, a decentralization pivot from the global head office and an aggressive three month Shopify RE platform that involved rebuilding their entire e commerce stack from the ground up. Today Kira talks about unifying physical and digital teams to serve one customer. The behind the scenes chaos and the clarity that she was able to bring to a rapid RE platforming project and how building trust with your team and your agency partners can is the real secret weapon to success. Plus, Kira shares how the Body Shop is balancing heritage with modern e commerce innovation from bundling to B2B and next gen customer experience roles. But first a couple of quick reminders if you are heading to Retail Fest on the Gold Coast. Not long now. If you're around on Thursday May 28th, don't miss our retailers epic Gold Coast Bogan Trivia night that is happening at the Kurawa Surf Club. Spots are limited season. Secure your table now. If you're a retailer@add to cart.com it will be a brilliant way for you to meet other retailers in the room. And also if you are heading over to NRF 2025 APAC in Singapore, make sure you drop me a line. I will be over there. I would love to catch up when you're There. As always, a big thanks to our partners, Shopify and Klaviyo, for making this episode and our podcast possible. Now let's jump into my chat with Kieran McLeod Fink, head of Direct to Consumer at the Body Shop Australia. Kira, welcome to Add to Cart.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Thanks for having me.
[Voiceover]: So good to have you here. We've had a few conversations over the last, oh, goodness, two years, and it's been incredible to watch your journey and what you've taken on. At times I'm like, holy moly, you're really taking that on. But to see where you are today has been awesome, awesome to see it all come to life. So I'm sure all of that will come out in our conversation, but I wanted to start off with where you are right now. So you've stepped into the role of Head of Direct to Consumer at the Body Shop, and obviously the Body Shop has had some big global challenges and shifts. You're looking after the Australian arm.
Kira Macleod-Finke: That's right.
[Voiceover]: Tell us, I'm really interested when you decided to take on this role, because we met when you were at T2, when you decided to take on this role at the Body Shop, what was the brief?
Kira Macleod-Finke: So the brief originally was to kind of take my role that I was doing at T2, which was head of retail, really focusing on those bricks and mortar locations and bringing that skill set, that leadership into the Body Shop. So they were looking for transformative leadership, taking a team. At that point, it was Australia and New Zealand. So looking after 130 stores across the two markets and really driving that, bringing in the learning and development piece, making sure that we, you know, had the right stores in the right places. So very, very bricks and mortar focused. As you mentioned before, we had some challenges last year. We. We went through a couple of buyouts, which, you know, is always exciting. One buyout is. Is big, but at a global level, two buyouts is pretty massive. So, you know, my role became really focused on keeping everybody calm, basically, you know, in. In the face of mounting uncertainty. And so that was really where we turned. Well, where I turned my direction was like, how do we ensure that we have people who are understanding what's happening without really knowing the details because, you know, it was ambiguous for everybody. So how do you operate in that environment? How do you lead through that? And that became my brief. It was a new. It was an iterative brief, basically, you know, aside from the standard, you know, make the money kind of brief, it's about how you do that. And then as the business kind of managed to get through the last year. Coming into the last quarter, we saw a bit of a change in people in the. In the support office and the opportunity came to really unify the direct to consumer channels under one umbrella. So. And that. That's where I took on that digital role. And the E Common Digital team came in under my remit and we kind of really united and the key brief was about unifying the channels. And you know, like many businesses, there's always a little bit of antagonism between the. The retail space and the digital space. Like, there's a bit of muscling in. And you know, I know Cam at T2 and I would have a bit of Aji Baji and some elbows I shared, but we, you know, would sit on panels together and talk. Nice. So. But I.
[Voiceover]: Is this your diss track to cam? Now we're using this podcast just to unload on him.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Oh, you know, when I get the opportunity, it's always. It's always an enjoyable thing to do. No. So, but I think what's really great about this is as part of that opportunity to take on digital, obviously big learning experience for myself, but it was a really great way to unify and give other people in the business opportunities. So we took the opportunity just to kind of restructure the team. So we have a traditional kind of arm of the business where we have our property. So just under my team, we have a property manager who looks after those traditional roles. We have an operations manager who now sits across D2C, so supports from both an E comm and a retail point of view, because we've got a lot of shared services. So if you think about CRM, it's not just about driving a digital customer. Those emails send people into store as much as they send them online. And you know, right now our splits are still sort of in the sort of 9010 in terms of where the revenue comes from. Then we have our field teams with the state manager and the national sales manager, our E Comm and digital manager. And then possibly my favorite role that I've ever been able to kind of develop in my entire career is customer and learning development manager.
[Voiceover]: Wow.
Kira Macleod-Finke: So she came from traditional L and D. And what we've done is really elevated the role. So she becomes almost this pivotal central part of the team where she is the voice of the customer and then she helps us develop and train and she's sort of directing. She's almost like the conductor of this orchestra in some ways because she's as close to the customer as you can get without being on the shop floor. So she's able to step out of it. And I love this role so much. It's just a really pivotal role that helps us, you know, shift the dial on being customer centric, if you want to use that.
[Voiceover]: I've never heard of that title before and I think really interesting. So how does her. So what's her name?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Sammy.
[Voiceover]: Sammy. So how does Sammy's role differ to a typical customer experience owner? Because I love that you've got learning in there.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. So we've got our customer service team. It's separate but obviously interconnected. So Sami's background is really focused on product knowledge and sharing that knowledge with the teams and making sure they understand. So if you've gone into a body shop store and you've experienced a service, you know that our team like next level in terms of their knowledge. How does the product work for you? What are the ingredients? Why is it efficacious, you know, all of these things? Because we've really invested in the learning and development of our teams from a product point of view. But she's elevated that into not just what we're selling, but how we're selling it. Using the brand values to drive that and now using the customer journey to really elevate how we coach and lead, but also how we feed that back to other departments. So the customer service team, the digital team, how do we lay out, you know, what's the user experience online? How do we connect the two? How do we, you know, what do we put into our marketing campaigns that's going to resonate with the customer because she's so close to it and she interacts with the team who are the closest people to the customer. You know, this is where we get the value from. So it's a really exciting role and it's just been, you know, great to watch that role evolve and it will continue to evolve. But I think it's, for me, that's our biggest competitive advantage is that we're investing in that.
[Voiceover]: Yeah. And it sounds like you're creating something pretty special there in terms of. It was funny when you were talking about the Argy Bargy between retail and digital, and that's not uncommon. Like, no, it's not a slight on what you've seen. It is so common, but it sounds like you've, you know, instead of the Argy Bargie, you've brought everyone in for a big hug and like, we're all in this together. We're all going to Work for one customer across every channel.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. Well, I think, you know, for me that alignment is the key. Right. So at the end of the day, the customer pays us to do a job. So, you know, you can joke that my channel is better than your channel or whatever, but it's different. And it's about what does the customer need from us. So if you kind of remove that barrier, and that's what my role is to do, is to align everybody, make sure we're all heading in the same direction. And that direction is to service what the customer wants.
[Voiceover]: Yeah.
Kira Macleod-Finke: It's not complicated.
[Voiceover]: Well, it's not, but it doesn't happen that often. And you've got an incredible background in leadership in physical retail. Kunsworth, T2. What have I missed, Trent? Yep.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yep.
[Voiceover]: And so when you were like, okay, let's bring digital and E commerce into your remit, what was the piece that you were like most? Scared, almost. You felt there was the biggest gap in to bring yourself up to speed on.
Kira Macleod-Finke: So, I mean, the panic sets in really quickly for me when I don't feel like I'm an expert in something. So I, you know, if you. My history is around. Like, I've done a lot of self education through the years. I keep learning, I'm studying at the moment. You know, I just keep pushing that barrow of, you know, what do I need to know and how do I get as much knowledge about a subject as possible? So, you know, just that, like the void of digital and how complex it is in some ways, but also how simple it can be. So once I kind of realized, yeah, there's a lot that sits behind there and just give me a couple, just unpack a couple of those dodgy acronyms. Because people love to have exclusive language, and acronyms are the worst. You know, so even yesterday I was talking to one of my team and I was like, so what does that stand for again? And they're very patient and they explain it, but it's that curiosity that I think pushes it forward.
[Voiceover]: And it almost like acronyms can sometimes just force up a barrier. It's almost like these are our special acronyms. No one outside of this understands it.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, exactly. So it's exclusionary language. And every business has their own set of acronyms and every kind of department within a business, even. So whenever you start a new job, you're always having to learn that pattern language and try. And so it's always been my first port of call is to understand what are people trying to say when they're using these Sorts of words. And so that was my way into digital as well. So just like, okay, explain it to me. And you know, I've done projects over the years. My best story about, you know, my digital journey started in 1995 where I, I actually worked for an Internet cafe. So for all of those, the kids who don't know what Internet cafes were, instead of using your 14.4 keyboard modem to dial up at home, you'd go to an Internet cafe and get 28.8
[Voiceover]: and you'd sit on a coffee for three hours.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, exactly. So my job was to teach people how to use Internet relay chat and make coffees and I did neither of them very well. But I started to learn HTML coding back then and decided that the book was too complicated. So I moved on. But I went into retail instead.
[Voiceover]: How good. I love that story.
Nathan Bush: All right, so how long are you
[Voiceover]: into body shop now?
Kira Macleod-Finke: 18 months. 18 months, yep. It's been a ride. Yep.
[Voiceover]: And from a digital transformation perspective, what have been some of the most substantial projects that you've taken on?
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Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, so as I mentioned, a couple of buyouts, a shift in direction, the structure of the body shop, those that don't know we're earned. It's actually UK founded and a lot of Australians think it's an Australian brand, but it's a UK brand. We have a global entity and we have multiple franchise markets and multiple company owned markets and you know, it varies throughout and as many businesses. So the ebbs and flows of global businesses are through the centralization, decentralization model. So we want everybody to be fully connected and centralized and we're going to go through one hub and then we shift and we don't like that anymore. And we're going to decentralize everybody and create more agility through decentralization and that's the space we're in right now to give us the opportunity to be really quick to the decisions and be closest to the decisions. With that process though, we are doing a complete transformation in our tech stack from every touch point. So not just consumer facing but internal facing as well. So erps, etc.
[Voiceover]: So you've got to peel them off the centralized model.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yes, so it's very exciting. The first to shift was our E commerce site. So we were on SAP commerce cloud. So everything is sort of in that space I suppose, you know, Marketing Cloud, C4S4, et cetera. And we've taken, we had a quick turnaround time, let's say it was a shifting turnaround time there for, for a hot minute. We had about 14 days to get off the platform but that was extended thankfully and we had the very generous three months I think it was in the end.
[Voiceover]: Three months to replatform.
Kira Macleod-Finke: To replatform. So you know, that's exciting for somebody who hasn't done a digital platform replatform.
[Voiceover]: I bet you weren't using the word exciting at the time.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Oh no, there was words either side of that for sure. Yeah, no it was, it was, you know, who doesn't love a challenge, right? So, and I have to give it so shout out to our part. We had agency partners and that was a shout out to Overdose who were just like phenomenal. You know, we got extremely lucky with that partnership and we, we also had a running head start as well because with the UK entity had started this process. So we, we had some theme built, we had a lot of the product kind of, you know, in, in play and they had done a lot of the integration work as well, which we then replicated for our replatform.
[Voiceover]: Okay, so you've kind of got a mirror site of the uk.
Kira Macleod-Finke: I'll tell you why. No, it is a mirror site but it did require its own build. But we did get a lot of a running head start. So I would not say that a three month re platform of a site with, you know, over 1500 pages and nearly a thousand SKUs is achievable for mere mortals.
[Voiceover]: Yes. What was your biggest challenge in doing it in that time frame?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Look, I think one of the challenges and why we're decentralizing is that, you know, we effectively have a read only version of all of our technology in the market. So our legacy platforms were very. We were very dependent on the UK partnership to help us change things or, you know, fix things, et cetera. So our local knowledge of how the backend works was almost non existent.
[Voiceover]: Gotcha.
Kira Macleod-Finke: So there were a lot of time zones and a lot of different organizations that we had to manage. So I think the biggest challenge was trying to line everybody up so that we understood what the flow was. But, you know, honestly got the best team in the business. So, you know, we hired somebody who had already done a replatform of into Shopify, which was very helpful. And you know, he was just a. Yeah, I can't speak highly enough of
[Voiceover]: him, but just don't say his name, otherwise people will try and poach him.
Kira Macleod-Finke: What do you think? I'm not doing? I'm trying not to say his name. Hey, no, fool, no. So I think. But he, you know, he had used Overdose in the past and brought them on. And so I think all of the nervousness around, oh my God, how are we going to do this? Sort of faded away once we realized we had great people working on it who just like, were hungry for like the novelty of trying to do it in three months, you know, like. And that's the thing about people in digital who work in this space. They're like, yeah, okay, let's, let's give that a go. Like, let's give it a crack. Because you know, what a great story to tell if and when we do it and we did it. And I have to say, even I'm like, you know, for all my bravado around how, how good it was, the trend, like the actual cutover was 13 minutes in the end. Like we had this thing so planned because there was no other way to do it otherwise, you know, so everything was just managed to within an inch of its life. And yeah, a 13 minute downtime.
[Voiceover]: What was the hard deadline? Was it contractual? Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And was there much discussion internally around decoupling the front end versus decoupling the backend first?
Kira Macleod-Finke: So we couldn't decouple the backend where we've had to do the ecom first and now we're doing the erp so we actually have to do the integration again or we have to reintegrate. So yeah, that was like, we didn't really have a choice in it. So, you know, and honestly, the pain is in the resistance, right? So sometimes you have to push against an idea and try and bend it to your will and then other times you're just like, you know what, what are my priorities? Like what have I got to get done and what am I willing to let go of in order to achieve what we need to achieve? And we knew that this is like they're just were choices that we had to make. So.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, and I think that sounds like something you've done incredibly well is face those big decisions and then say to the team, look, these are the decisions that have made. These are the time frames. Let's do our best because I'm with you. Most digital people will prefer to get in and deal with imperfection and a little bit of scrappiness and a little bit of roller sleeves up, then deal with corporate BS back and forth and uncertainty.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, exactly. And I think too, you know my approach with that and sometimes like you can. And it's kind of good that I don't know what I don't know in some ways because I'm just like, well why wouldn't we do it that way? Why are you telling me, you know, is this a problem? Okay, well what is the problem? Tell me the story behind why it's causing an issue and then I can make a business decision to say, oh, just do it in a different way.
[Voiceover]: Fine.
Kira Macleod-Finke: And I think that that was refreshing for our agency partners, to be honest.
Nathan Bush: I bet it would have been.
[Voiceover]: And I can imagine that you would have brought in a hell of a lot of retail knowledge into the online experience as well. In terms of how to serve one customer, not just thinking it through, kind of an online funnel perspective. Is there any way that you approached it a little bit differently, do you think, than other say E Com leaders when creating that experience to make sure that it tailored for that in store customer as well?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Honestly, I think we're all learning from each other now, which is great. I think that was probably 15 years ago. It was very much like E commerce, a static. You put an image up, you buy it, off it goes. And I think there was a lot of work done by digital teams who you know, would sit in a bricks and mortar environment and go, what is it that they're doing that's different? Or how can we replicate that? Still working on fit, taste, smell senses, but you know, we'll get there. And I think, you know, that mentality around what is the best practice? But then what is the customer doing? So what do I know from a retail point of view? When a customer comes into a store, they are coming in for help. You know, it might be help to kill time, it might be help to buy A gift. It might be help to, you know, fix a skincare goal, whatever it is, when they've had that help. So they want it when they want it, and then they want to be able to process it, pause seamlessly. And that's pretty standard, right? Have a great connection, feel important, get the help when they want it, and then don't let technology get in the way of all of the good work that you've done. So if you think about it in terms of what does that digital experience look like, I want to be able to search easily, find the help that I want when I want it. I want some social proof now. You know, like I want people telling me that this is a good product and why should I buy it, you know, what it's doing for them and then I want it to be easy to check out and it's not so different. And I think that, you know, we've learned over the last few years how similar the process is. And people will shop online, research and, you know, find all the products they want and then they will head into store and they will buy it because they want to try it, smell it, fit it, whatever that is. And then you get the reverse of, I'm going to go into a store, but I don't want to take it home with me right now. I'll jump online and buy it and get it sent to home or, you know, the beautiful combination of things like click and collect and you know, buy online, pick up stores.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I love it.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah.
[Voiceover]: It's interesting, the point that you raised there around the sensory experience, because you do step into a body shop store and it is kind of that punch you in the face like. Yeah, it is an experience.
Kira Macleod-Finke: You're not getting punched in the face with strawberry scent. We're doing the wrong thing. Right. You know, spritz that white musk everywhere. That's the direction. If you see me go into a store, what I will do is I'll pick up a vanilla mist or a coconut and I will just walk around and spray it. And you'll see us doing that all the time. That is the whole point.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's amazing.
[Voiceover]: So when it comes to a replatform, because replatforming can sometimes cause a brand to almost get stale. So it's almost like cleaning the house, right. You get rid of all the nooks and the crannies that have made it interesting over time and you. And you're starting with this beautiful clean slate and there is the risk that you kind of lose the emotional Attachment and the things that have made you interesting and unique over time, how have you approached that? Given that you are such a sensory brand and you have an emotional connection with customers over decades who will know you and your brand, how have you kept that emotional connection online?
Kira Macleod-Finke: You know, I think emotional connections are really interesting because it is a tricky one to establish in a digital sense. I think, you know, first off, we probably didn't clean up the back room as much as we possibly should have in the RE platform, and we're working on that at the moment.
[Voiceover]: You've got a few rugs with a lot of stuff underneath them.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, yeah, it's bumpy, it's bumpy, but that's okay. So we're human beings and you know, where I think what people love about us is we are organic, we are natural. It doesn't not have to be perfect. But I think the emotional connection is, for me, that is one of the key. You know, if you think about why people shop in brands, it's that memory sense. It's that connection that they had when they grew up and you know, the girls locker room smelled like white musk throughout the entire 90s. And you know, what does that mean? Is that a good memory? Is it a bad memory? All memory is emotional connection to a brand. And so when you've been around for as long as we have, and you know, we're turning 50 next year, so it's, it's quite a legacy to kind of keep going. But we're, you know, people love the classics, right? People love and have an emotion to that heritage, that memory. And for me, it's really about how do we ensure that we don't shy away from our age. We don't shy away from the fact that we heritage that we're, you know, we're beautiful, organic brand that wants to, you know, we fight for a fairer, more beautiful world that is, that's like why we're here. We accept all kinds. We accept, you know, that people want to look the way they want to look, and we're here to just help them do that. And I think the emotional connection comes from just being accessible, being available, and making sure that we make good on our promise to, to be, you know, a great product comes down to that.
Nathan Bush: I love it.
[Voiceover]: What I also have loved looking through the site is that even though you're a heritage brand, and obviously brand is very important, there is new product coming through. So. And I don't know how old this is, so forgive me, but the hemp product and things like that isn't a traditional line.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Oh, no. Hemp's been around for a while.
Nathan Bush: Oh, okay.
[Voiceover]: It is.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. No, Hemp has a following.
[Voiceover]: What I saw was the reviews around, oh, the new product has changed or the formula's changed.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yes, yes.
[Voiceover]: And you've left the reviews up there, good and bad. So it wasn't all bad. It wasn't like. But there were people who were like, I like the old formula better. One star.
Nathan Bush: People like, no, this is great.
[Voiceover]: This works exactly as I wanted it to, five stars. But you haven't filtered them out to make it look perfect.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, well, perfectionism is a misnomer. So like everybody. And when you change a formula and we've, you know, you don't go through 50 years of business not changing formulas. Like that would be crazy. There's always going to be people who do not like that and then people who don't care and then people who love the new formula. And so, you know, I think you have to be willing to listen, you have to be willing to cop it on the chin and you have to. Then, you know, my role is really about taking that information and going, you know, feeding it back to the right people, making sure we have that two way conversation with the customer and people making decisions. But I think, you know, we go through and we do look at the reviews that we get, but we don't shy away from a bad review. We don't maybe publish things that are not so publishable, let's put it that way, in terms of language and that kind of thing. But you know, if somebody's not happy with it, then that's their. They're perfectly within their rights to say they're not happy with it.
[Voiceover]: Do you get many angry customers? I could imagine that most, most of your customers, I just consider them to be the most lovely, like sensitive, you know, one with the earth. Relaxed.
Kira Macleod-Finke: No. Interesting question. We, I think, yeah, we get a few. Honestly, the biggest challenge that we've had in the last six months is we've had sort of global shortages in stock. And these are people's favorite things. So, you know, deodorants. So who knew that? The fact that we've been out of stock of adherents for six months, I thought maybe people would have bought other deodorants. I mean, I'm happy they're not. But we managed to get a little small delivery in and it went, I think we, we sold out online in three days, so. And in stores was gone in, you know, maybe 10 days.
[Voiceover]: You got dependence.
Kira Macleod-Finke: We have dependence on it. So that's probably been the biggest problem that we're having to solve at the moment, is those favorite items that people are missing. Just, you know, and with one thing, another had a delay in that shipment. So for anybody listening, who wants the deodorants, they're coming back.
[Voiceover]: Is that mainly from an ingredients perspective or is it a operational like, you
Kira Macleod-Finke: know what, I need to go and sit and have a chat with some of these customers and really understand because I think people, I mean, I think it's a really good product. It hasn't been in stock for me to buy, so. And I don't want to take it away from the customer. But, you know, I think it's one of these things where people, people just love it and they're really loyal to that product.
[Voiceover]: That's awesome. What's your favorite part of the new website?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Oh, I have a couple. The one that I was like, really, I kept nagging the team on was the complete the routine feature because, you know, come from fashion and it's always like, well, you got the shirt, the pant, the belt, shoes, you know, like you get the full outfit right? So. And working with store teams, that was probably the one that I was like, this is something we do in store that I really want to see happen online. And so when you click into a product, you will see the complete, the routine and it will be, you know, what's commonly bought together or what we think, you know, it might be a mask and a brush or it might be layering products so you get the really the full force of Mango, for instance. And so I love that that that's there and that the team allowed me to have that. But you know, I think honestly, like the agility of Shopify, you know, the flexibility that it's given us.
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[Voiceover]: Efficiencies have soared.
Nathan Bush: Huge sales events are prepped and scheduled ahead of time. And integrated automations mean VIP customers are spotted instantly, triggering Exclusive offers without anyone lifting a finger. Just smart tools, stylish growth and one sparkling success story. That's Girls with gems on Shopify. To read more success stories like this search Shopify case studies
Kira Macleod-Finke: the fact that we can do it locally. We're working, we're now at a point that we've stood up for the sort of the mvp, I suppose. And now we're, you know, really in that add on mode. And what can we play with? Playing with a checkout component that helps us to an upsell module in the, in the checkout. I think they're called checkout components. This is where I get caught out not knowing exactly the details. But it's an app that has a founder in Melbourne and we've just been chatting with them and they're like, you know, we've asked them to like, could you do a couple of things like this? And you know, they come back six jobs done. Yep. No, we've done that for you. Like it's, it's amazing. So like just that kind of stuff is so cool and you know people, it's just a simple little add on like you would in. At a point of sale in store. Do you want, you know, we've got this on offer. Would you like to add it to your cart today? And it's exactly that. So it's like this, you can see like the commonality between the service is now coming through and that's the key for me. And that's why, you know, we're seeing that unified approach happening more and more.
[Voiceover]: I love it. I was on a call today with someone who's using, let's call them a legacy enterprise E commerce platform and really struggling because any little change that they're doing has to go through a development agency. And it is amazing, isn't it? I've worked in businesses where it is moving over to Shopify and you're like, actually we can just make that change in house today.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. And we're not coders. We have a team of two that run this website and they just work with partners and it's like, what's this? And they've given me access, which they shouldn't. So I'm like, what's this app? What does this do? Can we add this in? Will that make it better for the customer or why is that customer buying that? But not that.
[Voiceover]: You are a nightmare.
Kira Macleod-Finke: I'm a nightmare. They are very, very patient and tolerant of me. But it's so fun. It's so fun.
[Voiceover]: I love it. That's so good. I can imagine gifting. Is gifting a big part of your business?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, yeah. Gifting is a massive part of our business. Yeah, yeah.
[Voiceover]: And anything interesting happening in that space?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Well,
Nathan Bush: that you can talk about.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yes. What can I talk about? I mean, I think with gifting, there's two elements to our gifting. You know, we have ready made, so that's talking. We have a set menu almost of gifting, you know, that talks to convenience, like last minute. So Mother's Day coming up. Everybody coming in on the Saturday before that day or Sunday, you know, really not organized, but, you know, that's speed of like, just give me a pack. So we have that element and obviously Christmas is a massive time of year for us. Quarter four is the chunkiest part of our year. We also have what we call choose your own. So a little bit like a choose your own adventure story time. You can pick and choose what products you want. And we've got beautiful packaging from our community fair trade partners who, you know, it's all sustainably sourced and, you know, focused on supporting the communities in those areas and you can use that packaging as well. The trick for that is that's really easy to articulate in stores. Much harder to achieve that an online space. So we're working on a few things like build your own bundle and so forth. So Sophie and the team is. Yeah, she's trying to. We're just working on what that might look like and, you know, and I think that talks to. It's not just about gifting, but it's how people buy beauty products now as well. So it's often. It's not a one off, it's a one, two, three. There's steps to beauty care. There's like, you know, hair care comes in shampoo, conditioner treatment. Skincare is, you know, cleanse, tone, moisturize and some other things. And, you know, body care is like that layering as well. So I think there's applications for that bundling of products outside of normal gifting that can really try to leverage.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, it's a fascinating space. You mentioned fair trade there. Obviously, Body shop is built around sustainability and ethical. When you are designing this online experience, when you're starting from scratch, it's obviously more than, you know, I'm not saying this for you, but working a B Corp logo in the footer, right, it's making sure that the story is throughout the whole journey. How do you make sure that you have the right balance of selling, but also telling the origin story and the mission.
Kira Macleod-Finke: I Think honestly, history has been up and down on that. So, you know, there's been times when we've really told the story well, and then there's been times where we've let the story fall off a bit and people forget it and, you know, everybody's busy, whatever. Right. Like, people have other things to worry about in their lives. So I think it's a really interesting challenge because I love the brand. I think the story is amazing. The founder, Anita Roddick, you know, she just revolutionized the beauty industry. If you think back to it, they so, you know, took away animal cruel, you know, testing on animals, the campaigns, the activism, the history of all of that with the brand is, is amazing. But I think people like they have their own lives to live. And so when you're constantly trying to push a story and an agenda, people become a little less interested in that. So I think the balance that you talk about is really challenging. So you've got to be able to have a product that people want, I think is first and foremost. And the story behind that product almost becomes like, like a proof point. Yeah. I think in today's kind of way of working, it's hygiene stakes to be sustainable. It's hygiene stakes to have, you know, standard best practice around how you, you know, what your packaging is looking like, how you operate, who you partner with, what your supply chain. Transparency is, all of these things is just an expectation of doing the right thing. And I think for us as a brand, we are less interested in pushing that story of like, oh, we're doing the right thing now. And we're much more interested in making sure that people understand that the product that they get from us works. It's high quality, it's high value, and, you know, it's the natural ingredients that people are looking for. You know, it's classic for a reason, right?
[Voiceover]: Yeah. I had a moment yesterday when. And we're recording this late April, Mike from Zeroco announced that they're closing down, which was very sad because I've got to know Mike fairly well and big fan of what they're doing. So obviously a lot going on in that space. But it seems to me at the moment there is this wave against sustainable and ethical founded businesses. We had world's biggest garage sale which was turned into economy go down. Designer X went down. Like there's a couple like that. And it feels like it's really hard going if you are just pinning your flag on sustainability at the moment. Because essentially Maslow's hierarchy of needs for customers is like Actually, it needs to be affordable, needs to do the job to your point. And then if it does the rest of it for the community and the greater good, then fantastic.
Kira Macleod-Finke: And it's like it has to be almost cost neutral for the customer. They're just not willing to spend extra on that now. So, yeah, I think if you're faced with a choice and one is like natural ingredients, good for the environment, good for you, works, other people are telling me it's good. I think that's a key thing as well, versus a product that is other people telling me good, but maybe not so natural, not so great for the environment, doesn't have the same price and they're exactly the same price. Yeah, sure, people will go probably for the one that's doing some good. I think there's an idealism to it, but people are being really forced into pragmatism at the moment. And you know, my son would call it because he lives mum, you know, like, it's just people's money is short. And this is where, I mean, don't get me started on the whole debates around shift toward nationalism and protectionism, et cetera. We don't want to talk to global trade or anything like that, I think in this environment, but I think, you know, there is a sense of, well, I need to protect my own, but I also don't want to do bad. So if I'm given the choice of I can do good by just buying what I normally buy, I'll buy it and. But I think there is still a story to tell about why a brand is, you know, doing the things that it's doing. I'm not trying to say that storytelling is not important. I'm a big advocate of telling the story, so.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, but it won't, it won't compensate for a shit product.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Correct. Correct. Yeah, yeah. You know, we've got a refill program in our business that is like, the purpose behind it is really solid, but people just don't, they're just not interested. Like, you know, there's a core, there's a core customer that will come in, but it's effort, right. And people are time poor. They forget, you know, it's like, oh, you know, whatever, I'll just go and buy another one or do this. And like, I get it. But our challenge as a brand that really has a strong history in that is to make sure that A, we stay relevant to the needs of the customer and B, we make it as convenient and as easy for them to shop with us as we can. So they're the two words convenience and relevance that keep me up at night.
[Voiceover]: Sounds so simple.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Oh, everything's easy, right? Everything's easy.
Nathan Bush: One final question that I had.
[Voiceover]: Just looping back to what you said right at the start of the podcast that I've written down here, I'm like, I've got to come back to that. You said there that you spent a good chunk of your time and mental effort just keeping the team calm during a time of uncertainty. That's not uncommon. And I think there's a lot of businesses and a lot of leaders going through that at the moment when, you know, we're in an unpredictable environment. What tips do you have for other leaders who might be facing a situation where they know a lot more than their team, or actually they might even be in the dark as well, but they got to kind of instill a confidence and inspire the team to keep believing in the mission and moving forward.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. So it's not easy. I will say that I don't think there's a right answer or wrong answer for this, but for me, my approach was okay, you know, in my role, I need to be looking, and we're looking now at five year plans. Right. So we are really looking down the track to see what's coming. You know, how are we going to get there? What does that look like? What do we need? In this business, when you're in a world of ambiguity and you do not know if you have a business from one day to the next, you have to bring the pathway closer to you. And so it feels uncomfortable for a lot of senior leaders to not be like, well, where's my three to five year plan? I need to have this in lockdown, you know, like, I'm not doing my job, but you've got to be able to adjust it back and kind of move closer to the team who, you know, everybody's roles have different time spans of what they need to be thinking about. Just move back in closer with them and keep them going on. You know, look, today is another day. Let's go. What do we need to achieve today? And then you just put one foot in front of the other. You keep it calm. You be as transparent as you can. So it's not about verbal, you know what? And like, it's actually about being considered in what information you are sharing. And sometimes oversharing is okay, but have a reason why you're giving them that information. And I think if you can be transparent with your team and bring them on the journey, an overused phrase. I know, but bring them on the journey because everybody's in it together then. And you're not out the front trying to lead, you're in the boat paddling with them. So, you know, I think I managed to put about five different analogies into that story. But you get the point around just, you have to be in it with them. You have to stay calm yourself and you have to stay positive and, you know, that's the only way. And then as you get more information and then as you see the pathway open up, you can start moving ahead of the pathway and checking for whatever's lying around. And then bring the team closer in. And then. So that's where we've been and that's the best way I can kind of describe the last 18 months.
[Voiceover]: Is this your justification for getting into Shopify and mucking around?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yes, if I can use that as a justification, I will.
[Voiceover]: No, it's great advice. I love it. So I love when you said be in the boat with them. And, you know, sometimes you do have to. There's a lot of people. We used to talk about being on the dance floor or in the balcony. I think that's another metaphor that gets thrown around a lot. Lot. You've got to come off that balcony and be on the dance floor for a while.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. And the key to that one is finding the stairs to get back up. Yeah, yeah. That was always. So I was avoiding using the dance floor analogy because I have a team member who give me absolute hell for using it because we used to talk about, like, you know, I need to be above making sure everybody's doing the nut bush in the right direction. And she was like, no, we're all fine. Get back up on the balcony. So just walk back up the stairs. All right, fine.
[Voiceover]: All right, fine. Yeah. Awesome. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your approach there. God, I don't know what time frame to put on this now.
Nathan Bush: If you look ahead at the next
[Voiceover]: 12 months, where are your priorities for yourself and the team?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. So we are. I mean, we are moving fast. Right. So just because we managed to get a Shopify platform replatform in three months doesn't mean we're stopping there. There's a lot of work that we're doing. You know, we've changed CRM, we've changed loyalty, we've brought in lots of different apps into the system that we're trying to play around with. Really focused at the moment on B2B. So you talked about corporate gifting is actually A big opportunity. It's so manual right now when we, you know, we really don't even talk about it, but we get a lot of requests for it. So we really want to use the B2B platform to support just that corporate gifting piece. So, you know, that's the team member who. I'm not telling anybody his name.
[Voiceover]: You just have to watch who's been. Who's been on your LinkedIn profile and, you know, seeing your connections and all that. You'll get them.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah. It's not like you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to work it out, so. But yeah, so he's working on B2B. Probably a couple other things I'm not allowed to talk about yet, but I think for us out of stocks and getting back in, you know, back to normal in terms of stock is a priority, but from a tech point of view, we're re platforming erp, we're shifting the way we look at data. We're working on a whole stack of all of that background foundational work. So, you know, if I have to call this year, I have to give it a name. It's a transformation year. Right. So last year was survival, this year is transformation. Setting the foundations right, so we can really thrive into the next four to five years.
[Voiceover]: Sounds a lot better than survival.
Kira Macleod-Finke: It really does. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Love it. All right, so if people want to go and have a look at the
[Voiceover]: new website or get in touch with you, what's the best way to go about it?
Kira Macleod-Finke: Well, you know, the Body Shop Australia should be able to find it pretty easily. If not, we're not doing the right job on RC SEO and I'll be talking to some people, but, you know, drop me a line on LinkedIn. No problem. Get in touch, have a chat. Happy to talk through anything.
[Voiceover]: Just don't go near the team or you'll smash them.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Yeah, yeah. Hands off. Very protective.
[Voiceover]: Love it. Kira, thank you so much for joining us on Add to Cart.
Kira Macleod-Finke: Thanks for having me. It's been great.
Nathan Bush: Isn't Kira amazing? You just get the sense from her that even though they were given these crazy deadlines and huge pressure around the viability of the business, that her demeanor wouldn't have changed the whole time. I always love my conversations with Akira. She just brings calm but also energy into a conversation and that is a unique mix, I think. Here are three takeaways that I took from that chat with Kira. Number one, calm is a strategy. Kira joined the Body Shop right before not one, but two global buyouts she managed decentralization and a complete shift in the business structure where most leaders would be needing to look at a five year plan. She narrowed the lens and made it her number one goal to keep people calm right now. She made decisions transparent when they needed to be and helped everyone focus on what they could achieve this week, not this year. Sometimes that is not easy being a leader, especially if you've got a strategic bent to your leadership in being able to go, yes, I do want to play up here, but actually I need to come back here right now to help the team feel safe and secure and to get the things done that need to be done right now. Knowing when to be in the weeds and when to be as we said, up on the balcony is a huge skill. Number two CX Starts on the floor the body shop's revenue is still 90% in store, but rather than treating E commerce and retail separately, Kira merged them into one team and that is her strength. Because she's come from that retail background, it meant centralizing operations, sharing CRM services and giving roles cross channel responsibilities. I felt one of the best examples was their in house customer and learning development manager, Sami. I haven't heard of anyone frame a role like that before. Because her remit goes way beyond training, she collects real time insights from the shop floor and feeds them directly into E commerce, product and marketing teams so that they've all got the same information and the same opportunities ahead of them. She's essentially bridging the front line and head office and translating customer behavior into action right across the business. I love that it's L and D, but it's also a CX feedback loop all in one all across the business. That was a fascinating role for me. And number three, if you've got no tech background, it doesn't need to be a barrier. Kira had never led a RE platform before, but I know from my experiences with Kira she is the first to pick up the phone or sit down, have a coffee coffee to understand things that she doesn't know. And she's really open and honest about that. With a hard three month deadline, she drawed upon all of her experience and all of her contacts to make sure that she helped the team shift from SAP Commerce cloud to shopify quickly. And while she's the first to admit that her secret wasn't deep tech skills, it was curiosity and clarity. She was prepared to ask the dumb questions. She refused to be intimidated by acrobatics. She brought in a team member who'd done it before, partnered with a leading agency and made sure they built an MVP first, not a bloated wish list. It was all about how she managed it, not necessarily the tech that she knew. So don't let tech be a barrier for your career in e commerce. Thanks again for listening. And until next time, keep those customers adding to cart.
