Nathan Bush: Hi guys. Before we get into today's show, I want to give you a heads up on an exciting new venture that is officially launching today. Over the last few years, I've been consulting with a variety of e commerce businesses. They usually engage me to solve a technology or marketing problem. But what becomes very clear very quickly is that it's often a people or skills capability rather than a tech or marketing problem that we have to solve. We need to get the structure and capabilities right before we go out and buy that Ferrari that sits in the driveway because no one can drive it at the same time. As a retailer, I worked with lots of recruiters, both as an employer and as a candidate. What was obvious to me was that while there's no shortage of great recruiters, most don't understand our unique world of E commerce. We're a bit of that weird hybrid that sits amongst digital marketing and retail skills and we often have to do them all. That's why I've teamed up with my very good friend and amazing talent finder, Emily Hayden to launch E Suite. At E Suite, we aim to connect e commerce talent to help retailers, job seekers and our communities grow. We're already working with some high growth E commerce clients and have some amazing job opportunities live on our website right now. I'll be sharing more with you over the coming weeks and introducing em. But if you want to know more or get in touch, visit esweettalent.com au that's eSweet E S U I T E talent.com au we are the people
Nathan Bush: for E commerce growth.
Nathan Bush: Now let's get into today's show.
Sharon Anderson: It's a ticket to dreaming that moment you're giving yourself to. Just dream about what you might do with it or who you might give it to or what changes you make in life. Like it's really, it's really uplifting and it's really positive. You're looking at a system and digital experiences that need to up to 400 account registrations, 2,800 card, credit card or debit card deposits, and 3,600 entry purchases per minute. So this is not your backyard sort of sense of volume. The nature of lotteries too is that not everybody has a winning entry. It's really about how does the experience help soften the blow of that and how does the customer feel value in that transaction because that's ultimately what will bring them back.
Nathan Bush: Welcome.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to add to Cart, the podcast that Express delivers. All you need to know in the fast moving world of E commerce. Every month, Nathan Bush from 12 High and an E commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game. And of course, keep your customers adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello and welcome to Add to Cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and E commerce strategist at 12 high. Now imagine you're in charge of running digital for a company that had 3.7 million registered and active customers who spent almost $3 billion on your products last year. And then imagine if you had no products to sell them, only the dream of products. That's what today's guest, Sharon Anderson has. She's the head of digital lotteries at the Lot. You would know the lot for their brands, including Powerball, Ozlotto and Instant Scratchers. It's a totally different story from most of our retail stories as there's no physical goods to ship, but it was a fascinating insight into how you can still sell something that is totally intangible. In our chat, Sharon takes us behind the scenes on some of the challenges they face in transitioning older customers to online, something we all have had experience with, I think in Covid the tactics they use to navigate app stores that have different rules and regulations and how they handle the huge surges of demand one hour out from major prize draws. So let's get into it. Thanks to our partner, Shopify plus and Signet. Here's our episode with Sharon Anderson from the lot. Sharon Anderson, welcome to Add to Cart.
Sharon Anderson: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. I think it's going to be so good for our listeners because you are something totally different and not just you, the company you work for, obviously.
Sharon Anderson: Oh, I mean, I'm pretty unique. But yep.
Nathan Bush: I didn't want to cast aspersions right from the outset.
Sharon Anderson: Right.
Nathan Bush: So to give our listeners an idea of who you are and what you do, if I was your Uber driver and I picked you up and I asked you what you did for a living, how would you describe it?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, pretty much. I would just say that I look after everything website and app related. So for Australia's official lotteries and would usually then add the lot to which people would say, you mean the lotto? And I'd be like, yep, that's right. And probably I'd followed up really quickly with just confirming that I didn't know the winning numbers for tonight's draw because that's a pretty common question that we get working in lotteries and I could
Nathan Bush: imagine it was funny like the first two times and then you're like, haha, funny.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, it's good humor. I obviously want to get to my destination, so you want to go along with the joke as long as you need to. But it is funny. We used to get in our previous office, obviously a lot of our customers do, for our high prize wins, do visit our head office. So it's actually a really exciting thing. So a lot of drivers over the years actually have a really positive reflection about picking people up from our office thinking we might be prize winners. So I think they're excited either way if they find out it's actually people who work in lotteries because we do seem to be a bit of an enigma I think in the industry. So it's, it's always exciting to be able to talk about lotteries.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, brilliant. So tell us about the lot. What brands would we be familiar with in under the Lot brand?
Sharon Anderson: Yep. So the Lot is the official home of Australia's lotteries, which looks after, conducts the lotteries on behalf of Golden Casket, New South Wales Lot Trees, Tatts and SA Lot Trees. So the short version of that is pretty much all the lotteries Bar Western Australia. So and when we say lotteries, we're talking about really love loved brands like Saturday Gold Lotto, tutslotto, Saturday Cross Lotto, Oz Lotto, Powerball Set for Life, Instant scratch hits. It's quite a, a huge family of brands really.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's massive.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah. Yep. It keeps us, keeps us pretty busy. But look, I think the really exciting part for us is, you know, there's just so many people in Australia who have a dream of a kind of life changing event for themselves and for their loved ones. So, you know, we do have quite a fair reach and of course create a lot of different lottery products to meet the demands of different, different customers that we've got.
Nathan Bush: And why is there, and this is probably my simpleton view, why is there so many different types of lotteries? Is it purely to get a game on every night?
Sharon Anderson: Well, I think it's just an interesting kind of history that Lottris has had. We've invested quite a lot in customer testing and customer research because I think part of it is that customers do typically want more than one chance a week to kind of be in a draw. But it's equally about addressing the different, I guess, motivations or desires that customers have. You know, a lot of our games do vary in Their. Their prize winnings or their prize mechanics, as we call them. And that's really speaking to what. What we've listened, what we've heard from customers when we've been researching those games. So, you know, set for life, being offering A prize of $20,000 a month for 20 years is a really fun way, I guess of Dre, you would use that money as opposed to, you know, some of our larger jackpots, which can certainly start putting people, I guess, in a. An otherworldly mindset of what they would do with. With that type of prize money. So, yeah, so I guess it's about creating that differentiation to meet the different motivations for our customers.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, absolutely. And give us an idea of how many people are playing lotteries on a weekly or monthly basis and then how many of those are online.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah. So look, probably from a participation, which is what our technical term is, what we call it, look for our larger drawers and more notably our Powerball drawers, we're actually seeing up to half the adult Australian population purchasing an entry. So not a small amount of people or very diverse in their needs and motivations. And that's across all of our channels that we operate. And so from a digital point of view, they're relatively a smaller subset of that at the moment. So we're still very much and proud physical in store business.
Nathan Bush: Are you able to say what percentage is online of your sales?
Sharon Anderson: So as of kind of the. The financial year, we were sitting at around 28% of total sales. So what's really interesting, I guess, with our customer base is that it's not exclusive. So it's not that people typically just play through our in store channels or play in our online channels. It's. It's a really good mix across channels. And I guess, like, from a business point of view, that's really what we're trying to aim for, is offering that. That amount of customer choice where we can. But yeah, so that. That's sort of roughly where it's sitting at the moment.
Nathan Bush: And that 28%.
Nathan Bush: Has it been a significant growth over
Nathan Bush: the last couple of years or even
Nathan Bush: over the last year with COVID Yeah.
Sharon Anderson: So when I started back in the role in 2015, it was a much smaller percentage. And look, we've obviously invested in, I guess, growing our skill sets and our capability in that space over the last five years. So we've seen what call real incremental growth. So what's been really positive, it's. It's been a really healthy level of growth for our our business and I think it's also coupled in with the fact that we've also, we kind of frequently change our game structure as we call it. So we had a relaunch of our Powerball game back in 2018 or 2019. It's all a bit, I will admit it's a bit of a blur for me. It's been quite a ride but. And you know, like that, that's sort of where we started to see those larger jackpots and that's a really big driver of acquisition for us when we have those events because we have people who've never really heard or played lotteries before kind of becoming interested in the category. So. And yeah, look, certainly with the advent of COVID we then have seen further growth. We were already looking pretty strong prior to that event and I think, you know, we were really fortunate during that period to still have our retail network highly operational just given that they provide essential services to the communities that they operate in. So it's definitely been a really positive growth story but it's been a really sustainable one too. I mean we're not really out to kind of change our business. We're really there to augment it and to strengthen it.
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Sharon Anderson: 0%.
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Nathan Bush: And in terms of the channels that you're offering the gaming mechanisms through is it website and app?
Sharon Anderson: Yes, yes. So customers can buy an entry today or any day@the lot.com so we have a full functioning e commerce website and we've also got native mobile applications through iOS and Android. A little bit of a quirk for us being in in the gambling vertical is Google doesn't actually allow our purchasing app in the Play Store so it is available for download via our website and we subsequently have a what we call a results only app in the Play Store for Android. So that lets people check their tickets, retail tickets as well as checking the draw result. That's kind of one of those little downsides I suppose are a little bit of a challenge for us. But, but we are very on making sure that we're available in channels that customers expect us to be in.
Nathan Bush: So why do you know why? The reason is the rules are different for gaming between the Google App Store and the itunes App Store.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, it's something that we come across quite frequently working in online gaming is that a lot of these larger technology companies are US based and look culturally and legally they have completely different I guess aspects on it. Australia is probably quite familiar with having a punt and so I guess our cultural background is a bit different. So a lot of the time it's just those companies not necessarily having as much context of the Australian market and applying kind of those US based rules. So we had seen that in the past not, not really with Apple but we have seen that with other large providers. It's always I guess a, a fair point and there's a lot that goes into considering, you know, player harm and, and customer consideration. So you know, it's something that I think we really respect and appreciate in that instance. It's just really hard for us to explain that I suppose to our customers who really, they just want what they want and they kind of don't, don't need and they shouldn't have to care I guess like that sort of it's always a bit hard for us when we're like oh we'd love to but we can't. They're just like well I'll give you one star anyway because you just haven't sorted out my problem.
Nathan Bush: So you haven't changed Google's rules for us.
Sharon Anderson: Exactly. Maybe go and petition them here. But yeah, it was quite funny when we did launch that results app we did that because we could see that there was search presence for us but we just didn't have a place. So being able to I guess work around that condition of having a non purchasing app allowed us to have that presence and when we launched it, customers were quite rabid. This is a terrible app. It doesn't let me buy my lotto. And we thought oh God, we'll have to go and get our PR team in for this. But thankfully other customers were also quite vocal in response and said oh, it's a results app, what are you looking for? So sometimes you can rely on your customers to be your best defense, which is great.
Nathan Bush: Absolutely. And is there, is there something in that, around the Australian psyche that just doesn't see this type of gambling as gambling like because you're essentially playing by the same rules there as your sports bets of your world or your online poker. But this is kind of the lot has always been around. Right. And it's always been part of just what we do.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, look, and I mean, we're really fortunate to build on that heritage. Right. And I suppose what has put us in that public perception, and I guess both statistically it has been the way that we've operated our business and the way we administer our product. I think having a focus on player consideration when designing the games, it really comes into it. So, yes, we would suggest that it's on the softer scale, but we certainly don't shy away from the fact that it is a gambling product. But look, we thankfully see really what you'd consider sustainable and healthy levels of play for our customers, and we do quite a lot of behavioral modeling on that as well. So it's not really about kind of being tarred with the same brush. It's sort of saying you can deliver a really compelling experience and compelling product while still considering the needs of people. But, yeah, I mean, look, culturally, Australians, you know, we enjoy luck and we enjoy having a go. So, you know, it speaks to why the lotteries have been around for. For so long. And I think there's the other aspect to it being the community side as well. We've had a really proud history of giving back to the communities in which people are playing our games. So I think there's always a sense that you're doing good at the same time as giving yourself a chance to dream. So, yeah, absolutely.
Nathan Bush: No, it's definitely embedded into the psyche. I think of us as Australians.
Sharon Anderson: I think there's some really bad saying about flies I Up, up on a wall and whatnot. So
Nathan Bush: when I don't know about you, but when you think of the Gold Lotto user or the Powerball, there's a certain type of demographic that comes to my uneducated mind, and it's usually an older person with a pencil case full of their tickets and a pen ready to do their business at the news agents.
Sharon Anderson: Yep.
Nathan Bush: But you mentioned before that you've got a really diverse customer. Can you tell us about, you know, two or three different types of customers that you've come across? Some that we may know about and some that surprised you?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, look, I. It was funny. I kind of. It was the exact same thing when I joined lottrace. I was thinking of my own parents, you know, having the Sunday Lotto Gold Lotto ticket up on the fridge and then checking the drawer on Saturday night, possibly before, after, hey, hey, it's Saturday. While we had a roast. So it was all very, very white bread of us. But, you know, or it was my grandmother and prob, not in the best way, but maybe, maybe sneaky as a scratchy every now and again for Christmas time. So it, you know, that was very much my, my assumption as well. Walking in, I thought, oh, bit old, a bit tired. But it is so interesting. I think what unites all customers is that being in it to win it. Right. Like it's the thing that everybody says it's the most cliched thing. I think when I look at our social media profile, it wouldn't matter what game we were presenting. I think the most common response we see is wouldn't it be nice? Like it's going to be me. So I think the diversity really comes in more just understanding that everybody wants that chance to dream of making a life changing event for themselves or for their loved ones. But in terms of more specifics, I guess it does come down to the games that we offer and I suppose the channels as well. So a lot of the time for a digital player we'll see quite commonly that younger audience base roughly around like 25 to 35, which is in our traditional target. I think, you know, the nature of lotteries is that it's something that maybe comes into your psyche as you purchase a home for the first time or you know, you, you've got, you've got more things on your mind. So when you're kind of young and free, you're not really considering, like my life's pretty great. I don't really, you know, don't need to change it. It's, it's on a great trajectory and then, you know, life happens and, and you go, oh, wouldn't it be nice?
Nathan Bush: You get a mortgage and kids and you look to escape it all.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, that's, and that's it. And that's what this is like. It's a ticket to dreaming. I, I think we say here, even when we're designing the digital experience, which is highly intangible, it's a real emotional experience. You're walking away with a ticket that's kind of smaller. If you're digitally, you're not really walking away with kind of anything, maybe an email confirmation, but that moment you're giving yourself to just dream about, you know, what you might do with it or who you might give it to or what changes you make in life. Like it's really, it's really uplifting and it's really positive and I think, you know, again, that's just what's uniting people. But yeah, as I said, that younger audience we'd see them coming in more for those larger Powerball OZ Lotto jackpots or our mega draw at the end of the year, which is coming around. And I think people, they'll typically kind of engage with it and usually digitally they'll engage with it. But what we see as well, a thing that I was the most surprised about was our syndicate players. So syndicates are an offering that we have where a whole bunch of people can come together and essentially split their entry and play that across a number of games. And I think that really surprised me in terms of how many people run those themselves and do the office collection and whatnot. So it really provides an opportunity for people who aren't as familiar with lotteries to get involved in a more sharing and community sense, which is really great. I think the customer age brackets. For me, what blew me away was I just made an assumption that being digital therefore meant audiences would be younger. It's really not. It's actually Mabel, it's the 85 year old you were talking about before and she's really keen. She can't get to the store, so she's actually really keen to grab her entry because she's still got to be in it. So when it comes to us designing our digital experiences, we actually have to think about people who are not digital natives and delivering an experience to customer base. As we said, if you've got up to half the adult population purchasing and you've got a good chunk of those purchasing digitally, you have to start thinking about some things you might take for granted. Where you go, well, obviously everybody knows how to copy and paste and obviously everybody knows what this button does. And that's not always the case for us. So the diversity is important.
Nathan Bush: Can you tell us a couple of those moments where you've had to kind of redesign an experience to cater for that non technical crowd?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, sure. So. And it kind of goes back to the ticket actually. And this is something that we did during COVID which was, you know, a lot of customers, unfortunately, due to lockdowns, weren't able to kind of make it to their local store, but still wanted to be involved. And a feedback that we actually got was that they really wanted to print out their ticket and it wasn't, it wasn't a function we'd made, you know, I suppose thinking, well, it's in your account, it's there, it'll, you know, and when you, if you have a win, we automatically pay those winnings back into your account. Happy days. But we saw that. So much. And I think that was us really, you know, putting ourselves in the shoes of those customers saying they still love that tangible ticket, they want to stick it up on the fridge and they want to make it happen. So, yeah, we ended up designing a printable ticket for people to print out, which wouldn't be something, as I said, normally as a digital business you'd do, but our customers have loved it. So, yeah, it's a pretty good example.
Nathan Bush: How did you come across that insight? Like, where did you get. Pull that from?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, so we actually run, we collect quite a lot of feedback through our contact center. So we have an Australian based contact center and they pass quite a lot of feedback through to us from the calls that they take. We also have an email contact us form and we also have a voice of customer program that is run by our customer experience team. And so it's been a really big thing for us since we created, I guess this digital business, or I guess, what do we call it, rebooted it, I should say, a few years back, is we really use the customer feedback to prioritize the changes that we're making in the channels. And it's so, it's so important for us because I think working in a business as large as ours, there's a lot of opinions and it can always be challenging to work out whose opinion is the one that you need to listen to. And so we were probably a bit cheeky and we decided that it was our customers that we wanted to listen to. You know, it's a bit, a bit novel, bit of an idea. But I think doing that, we feel this real sense of satisfaction where we see a complaint or a trend and we're able to sort of deliver that and turn that around quite quickly. It's really how we've driven so much of the features within our mobile applications. We started very MVP there and customers were kind of screaming at us for more features and it's something that we're always really proud to deliver on. But yeah, so again, we have a voice of customer program by which we pull that through. We have our App Store reviews as well and we make a point of reviewing those monthly and then looking at our own backlog and seeing where things get weight. So we want to be responsive as well and we're really fortunate that our technology allows us to do that.
Nathan Bush: So when you talk about reviewing it monthly, is there a report that comes to the digital team that kind of collates the voice of customer, customer feedback, app feedback, all in one report? And you can Understand what's kind of on top and what's trending.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, it's not all in one report, because that's a utopia, Nathan, as you know, like trying to get different data sources all in one beautiful big report. But for the most part, yes, absolutely. So the way that we'll typically do it is, is that the verbatim gets categorized and I'm actually unfamiliar with the platform that we use, but the verbatim gets categorized and then presents to us in themes and we kind of typically would put that under lottery themes. So is it about buying an entry? Is it about ticket history? Is it about playing it again? Is it about. So it's, I guess, language that's familiar to us, but we can ultimately see that trend line of what's going up and what's going down. I mean, we also run quite a heavy optimization program or API testing program as well. So we're constantly trying to optimize our conversion rates. And through that you'll build a backlog of insight as well. So we like to use a bit of the qual being our customers and their voice and a bit of a quant in what we're testing. And so that formulates our roadmaps for the website and the apps.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. Great. And in terms of getting all of that into a roadmap, because I could imagine there's so much that you think that you could do. Is it up to the digital team to just go ahead and do the AB tests and then present that back as a case for or implementing into a production Sprint or.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, that's the other way around. No, that's. That's pretty much how we do it. So we'll, we'll gain that insight, we'll do a rough assessment of effort and versus what we. Our hypothesis of what it's going to return. And, you know, we'll conduct that test and then based on that, we'll look to either implement as permanent code, so we'll then brief it to our development teams for permanent work or we'll of course kill it because it didn't work. So, you know, very much a key thing in there is you need to have the ability to fail and to fail quickly. And we've set up that program in such a way where we really can. And I think something that I wouldn't have realized about, which may be unique to Lottery, is I'm unfamiliar. I certainly didn't think about it before I started in this role. And lottery plays heavily ritualized, so people, you know, it's something that's on their list to do each week because they, they can't miss out. And so when you change things on customers, even if it's, you know, where the full stop is or where the button is, it's a big deal. Deal is what I've learned. And caring about customers so much, you know, we, we obviously get disheartened when we, when we do get that, that feedback where they're like, why have you bloody change this? So it. And they do sound like that. I will. I gain a lot of pleasure of reading Al verbatim because again, our customer base is so diverse that their, their opinions or their commentary about us or wondering who we are and whether or not we should be retained in our jobs. That's my favorite type of feedback.
Nathan Bush: But don't worry, I've had lots of feedback from super cheap auto customers before, so I think we're. We're okay.
Sharon Anderson: That's right. And it's emotional things. So I think doing that, that testing and doing that to smaller audiences really gets you. You can move that cheese just a little bit easier, I think, than just making the change and thinking you've got it right.
Nathan Bush: So, yeah, talking about shifting customer behavior,
Nathan Bush: if you're talking about that younger customer
Nathan Bush: who's coming to play for the first time.
Sharon Anderson: Yep.
Nathan Bush: What are some of the key things that you need to do from a tactical perspective, whether it's marketing or technology to get that first customer over the line to play? Because like you said, I think it's fascinating is that once you're in, you've got an account and you're set up and it becomes a ritual over time. It's rolling, right?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: But getting that customer over the line for the first time, what have you found out about that?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think we always look at it that all we're wanting tactically is of course, that entry in the drawer. So we're not particularly focused on how much that entry costs or what the entry delivers. So we're not really pushing ourselves via those standard E commerce metrics that businesses would have. We really just want that person to engage with that brand and grab an entry in that draw. Because as I said, after that, as I was saying, it's an emotional purchase. So really what we focus on from a digital point of view is making sure the experience is as useful and usable and reliable and fun as it can be so that it garners, I guess, that sense of excitement and anticipation the customer has. And that's something that we're still working on, to be really honest, that's a continual focus for us is how do we. I think our first step that we did was make things really easy to transact with. So we focused on all the transactional elements and made that really effortless. But in so doing, sometimes you can remove the really positive friction that you have through just waiting a bit longer or maybe presenting an animation or, you know, just those little micro UX moments that make people go, I enjoy doing that. And look, the nature of lotteries too is that not everybody has a winning entry. And so. I know, I know it's so sad, but so it's really about how the experience helps soften the blow of that and how does the customer feel value in that, that transaction? Because that's ultimately what will bring them back. So coming back to our customer feedback, you know, we, we run Net Promoter Score and what you'll find is that customers will actually say, oh, the experience is great, but I didn't win. So you've got two stars. That's not something that's in our control. So we try to not focus on that side. I guess how we soften the blow more tactically will be really talking about the contributions that we make back to our communities equally alongside just that direct call to action or that belief in winning that we try to drive with customers. We really also want to reinforce the community contribution that, that their ticket is involved in. I mean, as a business we have in the form of like donations and our state government taxes have delivered back 1.4 billion back in. And it's, you know, it's not small. And those things, you know, go on to fund a lot of really great causes within each of the states and territories that we operate in. So I think tactically that's what we look at where we say, well, you know, even if you personally haven't had success, you've contributed to something that's, that's bigger than yourself. So yeah.
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Nathan Bush: You've done some things recently like turning the fun into the actual process of buying the ticket and making that process fun.
Sharon Anderson: Yep.
Nathan Bush: And the one thing that caught my eye was that execution where you can take a photo of something and it kind of reveals your lucky numbers.
Sharon Anderson: Yes. Yeah, so that was, that was picture pick. So, yeah, we actually did, we did that a few years ago and, and again, that this is it. Like we're always trying to explore if there are more elements to just the, the act of purchasing the ticket that creates better engagement. Because we do such a fantastic job. Our marketing team are amazing at bringing that awareness of these game brands and that belief in, in winning alive. And, and then, as I said, and those community contributions. And so, you know, where our focus is or where we really come into is how do we continue that really great emotion and tradition? How do we actually embed that into the purchase experience and the results experience? Of course, that comes after as well. You know, there is a draw that happens and yes, I will confirm there are actual barrel draws that happen and it's not, I think we get a lot of, a lot of calls about that. And we still broadcast the drawers for those people who, you know, might not be on tv. That's right, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's on Channel 7, so I'm sorry to mention a Nine TV show there. Whoops. But that was my history. So I, you know, that's what I recollect. But it, you know, as I said, there are a lot of other elements to the lottery journey. I suppose that we as a business are probably spending a lot more time focusing on now than just traditionally getting that, that sale message out, out to customers. I mean, that's, that's still really important and needs to be there. We need that consideration. But yeah, like you've said. So, yeah, a picture pic was the idea of taking a photo and that transforming itself into numbers, which represented your photo. We, we actually stopped offering that because again, to that point, what we found with customers is they kind of enjoyed that, that concept once and then probably, you know, disengage with it afterwards. But that's what we want to be able to represent for our digital business is the ability to trial new things and to trial new experiences. Because I think for every situation we've had like that, we've had some other really great permanent changes we've introduced. We were one day just sitting there and said, well, you know, when you're scanning a ticket, maybe you should, maybe there should be some confetti. And it was really one of our developers that said it to me and then just, you know, within a couple of hours had a little prototype and we thought, oh, that's cute. Let's just put it in and see how it goes. And it's still the most screenshotted thing that we have. And it was the simplest thing. But of course, what it, what it did for players, people wanted that confetti. They were desperate for it. So it's sometimes just really, you could do something grand like pitch a pick or you can do something really simple like some confetti. And, and it really has that, that impact. So again, it's, it's about, you know, l. Your customer's shoes and appreciating what's really important to them at that. That point. Lotteries is an easy place to fall into the jargon trap and just assume that customers know what you're talking about. And I think I'm well known in our business for just saying, but does a customer care about that thing? So, yeah, we try to keep it real in digital.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. Awesome. Now let's talk a little bit nerdy
Nathan Bush: because I could imagine that there's some
Nathan Bush: fairly unique tech behind all of this. This, this isn't something you buy off the shelf. And you've have some pretty major peaks, especially around those times of the mega lotteries. How do you handle that?
Sharon Anderson: Yes. Yeah, look, and I'm happy to nerd out on this because it's by far the biggest thing that I've learned living here. I've never, never worked in a business in my life that experiences the types of spikes and peaks that this business does when we have our large jackpots. And, and look, it's sometimes considered a blessing and a curse to have your own technology. For me, it's a blessing. So we're really fortunate to have a proprietary system that conducts our lotteries and takes all the entry sales and the team that manage that are fantastic and really passionate about the business and the customer as well. And equally, we do all of our development in house of our customer facing touch points. So be it our terminals in store or apps or websites. So yes, it's a lot. And therefore you've always got that balance of what you can innovate versus what you need to continue to support. But these sales, I think other than more appropriately, the cyber week that we're in at the moment, I have Never seen anything like it. So when we're designing our experiences, it is a top three thing we have to consider is that, you know, that animation may be great or that journey may be excellent, but can we get that data when you've got, you know, millions of people requesting that same thing at the same time. So the way in which we've had to, and that has been something that we've had to equally work on over the last three to four years in terms of bolstering that capacity. Because as the digital business has grown, traditionally we would see our peaks happen just before the kind of stores would close around that 5pm and of course the stores themselves have now extended their own sales and then we sort of move into the last hour of the draw. The throughput rates are really phenomenal. I think off the top of my head sort of some of our larger powerball draws that we've had. So where we're hitting like 100 million or 150 million, it sounds even insane to say those amounts. But you're looking at a system and digital experiences that need to Support up to 400 account registrations, 2,800 credit card or debit card deposits and 3,600 entry purchases per minute. So this is, this is not small, this is not your, it's not your backyard sort of sense of volume. So it's incredible to watch like as it's happening. As I said, that highest point of activity for us is typically in the last hour before the draw. Most of our lottery draws close at around 7.30pm at night. AEST I have to write that all the time. But yeah, and it is just incredible. It's incredible to watch and look from a support perspective. A lot of us are kind of of on board online watching what's happening and what's going and we're always continually, I guess, tweaking the performance of our systems. And as you said, there's a lot of pieces that go into making it, making it all work. But I'm extremely proud of the technology that we've built. We've been able to deliver really compelling experiences that can withhold those types of volumes. So it is a big part of my life in terms of working with the technology teams and I find myself a split personality between the more common aspects of E commerce to suddenly having to shift into very much a technology based mindset where you no longer you're thinking about the customer because you want them to be able to get what they need done, but you're suddenly having to you coming into a few terms where your eyes might make glaze over. So it's deep nerd stuff. I'm probably shallow nerd approved. But yeah, when it gets into the deep nerds, I've got to trust the professionals.
Nathan Bush: That's it. Are you locally hosted or cloud based?
Sharon Anderson: It's a mix of both actually. So yeah, again we talked about, about what's something that's maybe not as familiar with or something that's more unique about gambling. So obviously we're quite a regulated business, as we very much should be. And so that our progress into newer technologies is actually also a journey that our regulators need to take with us. So our venture into cloud has been a little bit longer than what other businesses would be and that's really about making sure that we can still always conduct a lottery. It's essentially like the longer I've worked here, the more I've just seen it as more of a service that's being provided, a national service. So, you know, you have to really make sure that you're using a really good mix of everything to keep everything as strong as possible. So yeah, we're hybrid at the moment, which I think in some instances we'd probably want to be more cloud based than physical based. But there are some really good and solid reasons why we adopt both.
Nathan Bush: That's right. And cloud doesn't necessarily solve everything, especially when you're on a custom stack, right?
Sharon Anderson: Yes, exactly. We want to be able to be the one that's in control of those switches and those things at those really crucial moments. And I think, as we've said, a really core pillar of our business is conducting it with utmost integrity. So we need to be able to know where our information is and how securely it's stored and how well its redundancies are in place. So as I said, we take that on as being the right choice to conduct the lotteries that we need. Need to.
Nathan Bush: Fantastic. I think that's. It's going to be really. It's fascinating because a lot of especially e commerce retailers, especially recent ones, may have just signed up to Shopify or similar and you just get all that with it. Right. And as exactly like Friday Cyber Monday, it just works, it just, it just happens, it just runs in the background. But especially for legacy retailers, people who have more complicated setups, this becomes a huge, huge part. Part of what you do is managing availability.
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's a, it's totally a strategy of understanding what's really core to your business. So what's what, what do you do that no one else can do, or that really, that no one else can do better than you? And that that's the stuff that you need to own and they're the things that you need to build in a proprietary way. And then, you know, the things that, that kind of lets you then know what's ancillary. So you can kind of then start saying, how do I work with partners who are better established? How do I, you know, change my different pieces of technology? So, yeah, it's a huge part of the strategy. And I'd, you know, say to those people, look, if I could use a Shopify solution and kind of had it all rolled out for me, I think that's absolutely the right choice when if you know that that's not what you're about. Again, we're really fortunate to have a really strong technology backing in our business, and it's something that empowers our, our business. So we tend to keep it that way. But yeah, I always think of it as what's core and what's ancillary is a good way to look at where you invest.
Nathan Bush: Makes total sense. It's like that is the technology stack you've got there is a key asset for your business.
Sharon Anderson: It's like, absolutely.
Nathan Bush: If you were to sell the business overnight, that would be a key thing people would be buying straight away. So it makes total sense. What kind of innovations do you see coming in the gambling space over the next 12 to 24 months that you've got your eye on?
Sharon Anderson: Yeah, it's a really interesting question for us. I suppose, as I've said before, our kind of journey typically has to lag a little bit because we're. We need to wait for rules and regulations to sort of modernize at the same time. But when I've been asked this question previously and asked it by senior management as well, I always like to think about what's not going to change. And it just helps set that whole context of saying, well, if that thing's not going to change everything around, it probably could. So I think for us it's, you know, we're really quite interested in voice and what that means. Again, thinking about a customer's behavior. They're checking results, they're wanting to know what the jackpot figure is. There's a lot of, of conversations that a customer would do or would have, I should say. And so therefore, I think voice is a really interesting place for us to play in. And I think it's really more about how a Lot of the technology that's available augments that in store experience. So it's not necessarily that there's some new technology that's going to completely obliterate the face of. It's really more about saying there are so many great opportunities being enabled by other companies. So you know, like what the Amazons and the Apples and the Googles are doing and it's about how your product becomes relevant back to that technology. So that's probably a lot of our focus, I would say. I think in the industry as a whole. I'm really excited about what machine learning can kind of bring in terms of player behavior because again we talk about this aspect of gambling needing a solid player protection framework and you know, delivering your games ethically. And as I said, that's something that lotteries we've done for quite some time. But I think the industry as a whole can really benefit from utilizing their data better. But yeah, I think, I think it'll be a very interesting landscape. I think, you know what's happening with the digital platforms inquiry as well that that impacts all marketers, not, not just exclusively us. So I think that you know, we, as much as our business is so unique in, in what it's doing, the reasons people are wanting our products or coming back for more are really similar to everybody else. So I think, I think we're really just trying to better use the technology to solve problems that customers already have.
Nathan Bush: Makes total sense. Have you got a favorite lottery winner story? I think we all love hearing these stories but is there something over your time there that's really stuck with you around a winner that.
Sharon Anderson: Oh, a favorite lottery winner story. I have to like, I probably more just. I was very, very fortunate to listen in to a call with one of our larger prize winners for Powerball personally and it had been such an interesting day for me at that time. That was our largest jackpot that I think we'd had at the time and I had been working since about 6am and doing a whole bunch of kind of ongoing support and maintenance and so I was exhausted and it was sort of roughly later into the night where we'd been able to contact. So our PR team have the wonderful job of calling prize winners who are registered or known to us and I think I won't talk about the call but it was actually just such a moment where I realized that amongst all of this digital talk and all of this E commerce talk there are people who are experiencing life changing moments and just I actually cried. I'm not even A crier like I, unless I like hit my head, I typically cry, but I, and to hear that person just in utter disbelief. And I was in disbelief for them as well. And you, as I said, you forget in some ways when you're actually in the business what that business is doing for people out in Australia. And it was just exceptional. So there wasn't anything particularly nuanced about their win. It was just being able to hear their voice and hear what that sounds like. And yeah, it's something that I, it's almost a bit holy in our, in our office. Like when you, when you get to, you can see the, the PR team kind of walk into the call booth and you're like, oh, I want to do that calling. So it's, it is that, as I said, not seems to be quite enigmatic to a lot of people, but that's the wonderful part of it. So all the stories are fantastic and, and everybody has some link or, or some way and, and as I said, our PR team do a fantastic job. Those stories out and of course we have them all written up on our, on our website for people to engage with and then they are highly engaging articles as well for us. So yeah, I think it was just that it was making it really human for me. I guess I work in a inhuman world, working in technology, so being able to hear that person on the call was just. Yeah, it was pretty life changing even for me.
Nathan Bush: Oh, it's been a fascinating conversation because it's so different to the ones we normally have where it's not a physical product that you're selling and everything that you're doing here is about turning an experience that could be so remote or so kind of transactional and giving it a human element over it at all stages. And that's really fascinating to hear your insights in how you've approached that. So thank you for sharing that.
Sharon Anderson: Oh, thank you so much. It's been great to talk about it and depart the veil on what trees.
Nathan Bush: Now if people want to get in
Nathan Bush: touch with you or hear more, what's the best way to get in touch with you?
Sharon Anderson: Well, for me personally, I'm, I'm pretty much a self proclaimed industry recluse. I will say that I just like to sit in my little corner.
Nathan Bush: You've blown it now. You've come on this show and it's all over.
Sharon Anderson: You've exposed me, you've found some new talent. But look, I'm, I'm available on LinkedIn if anyone ever wants to kind of chat about lotteries or just chat about, I guess digital transformation in general. And of course if you are a lottery player, given that you know there's quite a few of you out there. First of all, thank you. But secondly, feel free to leave us an app Store review if you're using our apps or leave us some feedback via our email form on the website. You never know, you might see your feature in the website or app anytime soon.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome. Sharon Ensign from the Lot, thank you very much.
Sharon Anderson: Thanks so much.
Nathan Bush: I really enjoyed that chat with Sharon. It's so fascinating to dive into into a totally different retail model to understand the unique challenges that they face. What stood out to me though was Sharon's focus on the customer. Even when the regulations are really complicated, the technology is a beast and you are part of a large multi billion dollar company, Sharon still turns to the customer to make her decisions. The process about reviewing and actioning customer data, at least monthly, was fascinating and more so Sharon's confession that there's no magic report which brings all that feedback into one tidy dashboard. There's still no blue pill to swallow, but the important part isn't flawless data. It's taking the time to regularly review the feedback and to start taking action today. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep adding to cartoon.
