Matt Newell: The customer experience should be as blurry as possible. I reckon it's better to watch a lion in the wild. Businesses that think the answer is don't change. I think you're fucked.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to Add to Cart, the podcast that Express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of E commerce. Every month, Nathan Bush from 12 High and an E commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course, keep your customers adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello there and welcome to the Add to Cart podcast. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and strategist at e commerce consultancy twelve High. In today's episode, we are discussing something that is very close to my heart, which is customer insights and creativity. How do we get to the real truth behind why customers do what they do and how do we connect with them on an emotional level? Joining me today is the legendary Matt Newell, who is a partner and CEO at the General Store who specialize in retail strategy and innovation. They're actually an agency, not a retail store, by the way. Like myself, Matt has a background in advertising, has always seen the world through the customer's lens and it's seen in his work. The General Store has helped retailers such as Freedom, Super Cheap Auto and one of this show's favorites, the Iconic, deliver really memorable and differentiated retail experiences across all touch points. Our conversation today explores the lessons from these experiences as well as shining a spotlight on retailers such as Lush and Walmart who are really performing at the next level in terms of retail experiences. Before we get into our conversation, I've just got a couple of warnings. This was recorded pre Covid and that leads us into our second point which we recorded this in the lobby of the Pullman Hotel at Inside Retail Live back when you could go to conferences. So please forgive the random phone calls and the elevators in the background. No coughing. Thankfully, there are also a couple of f bombs drops. So just in case you have some budding retailers listening with you, be warned. Now, thanks to our partners, Shopify plus and Klarna, let's dive straight into customer insights with Matt Newell.
Nathan Bush: Hello, Matt.
Matt Newell: G'. Day.
Nathan Bush: Thanks for joining us.
Matt Newell: Thank you. Thanks for having me, mate.
Nathan Bush: We are at Inside Retail Live and you've just come off stage with Michael Fox telling the story of Shoes of Prey, the ups and downs and the lessons out of that. How'd you find it? Good.
Matt Newell: Yeah, it was good. I mean, props to Michael. I think that was his first live interview post. The winding up of Shoes of Prey and yeah, I think great, you know, of him to sort of share his learnings and his stories. You know, everyone talks about the successes, but there's so many learnings in the hard side of business and retail. So I thought he shared really, you know, generously. And yeah, I thought it was a good sesh.
Nathan Bush: He was very honest.
Matt Newell: Yeah, it was. It was good on him. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: But also you were honest too. Yeah, I think because your relationship with him goes back a fair way as well, right?
Matt Newell: Yes, yeah, yeah. In fact, met him at Super Cheap Auto, where effectively you and I met.
Nathan Bush: That's right.
Matt Newell: So, yeah, he's sort of a super retail group alumni, much like yourself. Yeah, true.
Nathan Bush: Well, off the cuff. My favorite quote from you in that, in, in that keynote was around you said, we, as in the general store, we're the only ones to make money out of Shoes of Prey, which was a bit shaky and I don't think
Nathan Bush: you saw it as controversial as everyone else saw.
Nathan Bush: Was fantastic.
Nathan Bush: I loved it.
Matt Newell: Yeah, it's probably true.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Matt Newell: I don't know.
Nathan Bush: But now, mate, we are here to talk about memorable physical retail experiences, because the general store as an agency has a lot to do across all areas of retail and been particularly impressed by how you've been able to transform a lot of retailers, retailers especially more traditional retailers, to have physical experiences that were really memorable.
Nathan Bush: Before we get into that, can you
Nathan Bush: give us a bit of background, a little bit of kind of flavour on what the general store is a bit about yourself? Because I remember the first time I met you, it was a presentation around the psychology of shopping as well. So you've got a really deep background here. So can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and the general store?
Matt Newell: Yeah, yeah. So I grew up in the strategy department of ad agencies and I always thought there was a flaw in that model, which was basically like no matter what the client's problem was, the answer was always an ad. So there's this problem there, I think, with consulting businesses that specialize by discipline. And so that's why I started the general store. It was like, what if you could do the complete opposite of that? Instead of specializing by discipline, we're specialized by market sector, which is retail. And then we offer all the services that retail marketing people need. So they need strategy, work done, they need brand identity or naming, they need stores designed advertising campaigns, products, packaging design, loyalty programs. So that's what the general store does, really. And sometimes clients, our projects, touch all of those areas. Sometimes it might be one or two, or sometimes it's even none. Like it might just be a research model. But what I'm interested in is that we could stitch together a more interesting set of answers than if you were just a discipline specific kind of offer.
Nathan Bush: Makes sense.
Matt Newell: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And I think it's something that's really needed especially to help retailers reimagine what life can be. Because sometimes it's so easy to get bogged down in the I've got to hit this target and this is the way we've always done business. And what I've seen from you and your team is the ability to really shake things up, but also take people on that journey. It's not just about presenting flashy advertising agency ideas. You actually bring them to life as well.
Matt Newell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think too, I think it's useful for retailers because we still do, especially large retailers have very siloed kinds of businesses. And the digital technology people don't talk enough to the store people or the product people or the marketing people or whatever. So we're big fans of bringing all those pieces together. And my view is that the customer experience should be as blurry as possible. People should walk in and go. I mean, I think the best experiences are, you don't know if they're an ad, they're a store. It's a loyalty play. Like the blurrier the better. And I think because real humans, let's not even call them customers, like humans don't experience things in those silos. They want the full thing. So that's really, I think what the G store's about is to try and help people bring it all together in a seamless kind of way.
Nathan Bush: That's brilliant. And I read a quote from NRF and I can't remember who did it and I'll put in the show notes, but it was something like. I've never heard a customer refer to our store as a channel. In fact, I've never actually heard a customer use the word channel.
Matt Newell: Channel, yeah, true.
Nathan Bush: We use it all the time. Right?
Matt Newell: True, true. So it's interesting jumping in on that. I think that language is important. I'm a big advocate of us in the business using less MBA kind of language, less management language and more human language. I agree. Let's stop talking about channels and let's talk. I even think let's stop talking about customers, let's talk about humans and how can we create great human experiences.
Nathan Bush: So true. Because retail is one of those industries, isn't it, where we all experience it. Whereas if you're in say mining. Not everyone's been in mining before, but everyone coming into retail. And that's why you find so many people coming from retail backgrounds, coming all the way through into corporate or wherever they end up starting their own businesses. Everyone has an inane sense of what a good retail experience is because we all experience it in our day to day lives. It's not removed from what we do. So I think your call out around it's just a human experience is so true.
Matt Newell: And what's interesting is I find that in boardrooms that somehow we flip into a different part of our brains which are incredibly smart, incredibly logical and incredibly unrealistic in terms of how we actually all behave in the real world. And I think that's super interesting and that I think we miss tricks in that sort of mental dexterity that doesn't happen. You know, if we can get back into just, you know, the mindset of the way people consume in the real world, it's far more interesting and powerful.
Nathan Bush: So true. So how do you as a strategist get into the. That mindset? We heard from Michael with his new plant meat business, Plant based meat Fable. Fable, yep. That his research and one of his big lessons was about he now just goes into the supermarkets and watch people as they assess all the options in front of them, in front of that and then approaches them and go, hey, why did you choose this one over this one? And one of his key lessons to come out of, of the shoes of prey experiment is what people say they're going to do versus what they actually do.
Matt Newell: Actually do. There's a big difference. And you know, there is a thing in psychology which is the way that the brain operates in terms of when we verbalize things. It uses the rational part of our brain. And so our brains are wired to sound smart, but the reality is we do things for very emotional reason. So what Michael found was when he spoke to women and said, would you be interested in a website where you could customize your own shoes, you could get any shoe you wanted. They would verbally go, yes. I would be like, that's what they identified with. But the reality was that they wouldn't do it. It was overwhelming, it was intimidating, it was sort of difficult to do. But that was harder stuff to verbalise and harder stuff to rationalise. So I do think that consumer research can be very dangerous. Some obvious stuff can come out of research that can actually steer you in the wrong direction. At worst steer you in the wrong direction, but at best kind of not reveal the really powerful human insight. So that's one area when we're in research I'm really obsessed with, is what is the real human insight. And honestly, sometimes it doesn't even come out of research and you need to sit down with the client at that point and kind of go, this is what people have said, but this is what we think is the real emotional driver. And it's hard to justify that. So you need kind of brave people who are willing to go off piste, walk away from research sometimes and go, here's the real insight. And this feels right. Let's back that one. Because it'd be dangerous not to. It can be dangerous to go off piste, but sometimes it's dangerous not to go off piste as well.
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Nathan Bush: the more traditional methods that you use in terms of customer research, I'm assuming there's things like data analytics out of Google Analytics, footfall sales numbers, all that quantitative piece. I hear you do some kind of customer focus groups. Is there anything else that you do to try and paint that picture before you get to the point where you go, I'm not sure we're getting the full picture.
Matt Newell: Yeah. So traditionally there are two types of research, quant and quality. Qualitative research being more sort of psychology and insight based and quant being more measurable. And so, yeah, for the quant stuff, like you say you can use all those digital tools you were talking about, online surveys, things like that. For the qual, we can use focus groups is the traditional kind of qual method. My view though is I always add one other element. I prioritize this element over all other forms of research and that is to try and do some level of observational research. So be in store, try and watch, you know, 30, 40 people, shop a category or shop an entire store. We'll often add to that intercept interviews. That's a little bit like doing a focus group and it's got its pros and cons. But my view is because you're in the wild, you know, like you're there and it's closer to the reality. And sometimes they'll say things that you've just observed, they've done the opposite. And that's sometimes where you can get the real nugget. But I kind of, you know, there's that, that notion is that literally stopping
Nathan Bush: people in the real world and going, hey, I'm Matt, I'm from X. Do you even say where you're from or do you just.
Matt Newell: Yeah, well, some. Well, you kind of morally have to, I think, but usually people are pretty open to chat. There are some categories. We did some work once in women's swimwear and so like, I couldn't be the one observing women's shop for swimwear and then intercept them afterwards. But fortunately have female members of our team who could, who could do a good job of that.
Nathan Bush: Very wise choice.
Matt Newell: Yeah. But, you know, I think that's where kind of like the big opportunities are, is to kind of look for that, get as close to reality as possible. I mean, I always refer to focus groups. It's like watching a lion at a zoo. You know, I reckon it's better to watch a lion in the wild and that's what observational and intercept interviews. It's closer to being in the wild and you can get better insights that way.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I love that quote you referred to up there was around. The best research tool that you can have is comfortable walking shoes, comfy shoes.
Matt Newell: Definitely, definitely really believe that.
Nathan Bush: It's fantastic. And I think we see that so much in retail too, where we get comfortable behind our desks and we rely on what we can see in social media or in Google Analytics or wherever and we go, this is painting the picture. But nothing beats actually.
Matt Newell: That's right. I do think it's got its role. It's not like one or the other, but strategy by Google is an epidemic and got to get out from behind the desk and go and walk stores for sure.
Nathan Bush: So say you've got all that quantitative and qualitative data that you've been able to gather and you have this gut feeling that you still haven't cracked the real inside ear that's going to differentiate it for your customers. Do you have a process around how you kind of formulate those insights to bring back to a retailer to make them change their ways?
Matt Newell: It's a very good question. And I think my starting point is to not trust the research. So that is my starting point. Sometimes I'm proven wrong, but I would say very rarely. But there are occasions where actually the answer was there. And that's your. So my selling assumption is there's got to be a deeper insight. So I think that's an important starting point. From there though, it's really, you know, intellect and imagination and questioning and using the brain man, like not using other people to tell you, but get in there and think it through and try and find it. And sometimes, you know, I would like to think that normally there might be three to five hypotheses that start to come crystallized in your mind and then you can hunt them down and see sometimes, you know, if one's stronger than the other or one's just blatantly wrong. But really you're looking for the best one or two insights that are going to guide you. And I think that's where you can see retailers with a bit of X factor that kind of got to that
Nathan Bush: level, I think, and this isn't a new concept, right, because ad agencies have been kind of doing this for years, is that ad agencies have whole creative teams which are often, not always, but often trying to stay away from data so they can let their creative brains run wild and think about human behavior and how they might be able to interrupt or influence that behavior with new ways. So I think applying that to retail is something that's overlooked and it's fantastic that you've got a way to do that because that's one piece. One piece is having that insight. The next part is convincing retailers to make that change. And it's often we kind of get stuck in cycles as retailers and you know, change is always hard. What have you found to be some of the best ways to introduce new ideas, especially radical ideas to retailers for them to at least start considering?
Matt Newell: Well, I mean, that's an interesting question because largely when they've invited us into their business, their mindset is already there. So I would say we don't find it that difficult to get those interesting conversations happening. But there is certainly, I think, two types of retailers out there, which is basically the confident ones and the low confident ones. And the high confident ones usually have some ambition and will jump on those opportunities. The low confidence ones, you know, they might be risk adverse. Right. And so there you can frame up that yes, it can be risky to change, it can be risky to try a new thing, but it's also very risky not to change. And so sometimes exploring the angle of not changing, like commercially exploring that, I Mean versus commercially exploring a new idea can lay out a pretty clear path. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And which retail, which. What type of retailers do you see as ripe for introducing new ideas? So if you get briefs of certain types of retailers, are there any that you kind of not naming specific names but you go, or is it better if a retailer's sales are declining, are they more open to new ideas? Or, hey, they're on a growth path and expansion, is that a better time to introduce new ideas?
Matt Newell: Interesting question, Ethan, but my view is that I go in with a relatively high level of optimism on any of those sorts of projects that people will be up for it and you've got
Nathan Bush: the track record to show it.
Matt Newell: So I think, yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean, we're at a point where we've got good work out there and so people are hiring us for that. So I think it's a little bit easier. Yeah. But for those people who we're not dealing with, for example, I mean, I just do think that, I mean, consumers, humans change frequently the way that we consume. Everything is changing. And for retail businesses that think the answer is don't change, I think you're fucked.
Nathan Bush: Yep.
Matt Newell: Like, so I don't know. Those people don't reach out to us so much, but maybe they should. I don't know.
Nathan Bush: Absolutely. All right, so let's talk about innovative retail then. Have you got any retailers in your mind who are doing a fantastic job at being innovative, at constantly changing with their customers as they change?
Matt Newell: I think they're. I mean, it's easy to comment and Retailer bash.
Nathan Bush: Right.
Matt Newell: And you know, it's from sitting on the sidelines, it's always easy to comment on who can do better. But I think there are people doing really, really good work. You and I were just in a session then at Inside Retail Live listed to Peter from Lush talk about her business. I mean, that is a phenomenally, like, creatively led, customer focused business. And it's a business that really shouldn't be as successful as it is. They sell bath bombs. Who the fuck needs a bath bomb? Right? But these guys inspire through their creativity, their execution, their team, who are so, so drunk, the Kool Aid that they've inspired millions of people all around the world. And Australian concept, amazing. All around the world to buy bath bombs. But they're amongst other soaps and amazing. And even on the soaps and things, the, the stuff that we actually need, there's a bee, I'm making it up three, four, five times the price. Like, you don't need that soap. But they are doing an incredible job of inspiring people to shop. A category that we don't need to shop. It's a brilliant example.
Nathan Bush: I think they're also unapologetic about it. Right. So a couple of examples that they gave was around what they stand for, that they actively campaign politically for some of the things that they believe in as an organization, and they're unapologetic about that. They know that they'll alienate a certain amount of people, but they'll actually embrace a whole bunch of. Yeah. More.
Nathan Bush: And that'll.
Nathan Bush: That'll stick to them.
Matt Newell: I think that's that thing we're talking about before, about just being human. The worst thing you can be is corporate. You know, no one wants to. No one's inspired by a corporate kind of experience. And so they're just being human and authentic. And. Yeah, look, I mean, they've probably got conceivably. I mean, all the campaigns I've seen them do, I've really have share their personal values. But if they did one that I didn't personally agree with, I would still, like, respect them. It just feels human, you know, I'd still respect them for having a point of view and for going for it. So I think we're too timid of, you know, a vocal minority, you know, that, you know, you've got a vocal. You'll have a vocal minority, a vocal that are negative, a vocal minority that are massively supportive. But the vast majority in the middle are just going to enjoy the ride and enjoy the dialogue and we don't hear from them. But there's great business and great humans in there too, that we can deal with. So I think that comes down to that human thing. Like, just be human, be passionate, be interesting.
Nathan Bush: And that is also.
Matt Newell: It's attractive.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's attractive. It's attractive for your customers, but it's also your team. And Peter was actually saying in there, she said, our team actually get upset with us if we are passionate enough or vocal enough about some of our causes on issues. So I was like, it's just. It kind of breeds through the whole ecosystem, doesn't it?
Matt Newell: Yeah. She's just done a great example, I think, of creating a bit of a movement that people are passionate about. And, like, think about that for a second. It's fucking soap. How did she create a movement that people are so passionate about? And it's just around soap and bath bombs.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Matt Newell: I mean, it's genius. And so my answer there is like, yes, that is great retail. Yes. And we, we, we need more of that. That's exciting. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Any other retailers you're seeing doing it really well here in Australia? Oh gosh, I know, I'll put you on the spot there.
Matt Newell: I'm terrible, I'm terrible at these sorts of questions. But one, I mean, one thing that I kind of find interesting is that I do think that there are two types of retailer that need to be celebrated. There is the efficient, like the Amazon, the Woolworths, the, you know, we do want to consume that low cost, big range Bunnings, you know, low cost, big range, super efficient kind of retail experience. We definitely want that. But for any retailer that's not out there to be the cheapest and the most convenient, then you need to have an amazing experience. So there's only two types of retail, I think there's the high experience or the high convenience. And if you're not going to be winning on price, you need to be winning on experience. And so, yeah, I think Lush is an example of that. Amazon an example of super high convenient, low cost kind of retail. But yeah, there are lots in that space.
Nathan Bush: Do you think that they could both come under customer experience? Because I think a lot of the times when we talk customer experience, we go, oh, you want to come in and we'll get you a nice drink, we'll sit you down, we'll spend 20 minutes showing you through the product engine. And we think that's a good product, a good customer experience. And for sure it is for some customers. But some people just go, actually if I can get in, get that thing that I want and you make it so much quicker and I don't have to wait and I'm in and I'm out in 10 seconds flat. That's a great customer experience to me as well.
Matt Newell: That's the way the iconic think. For example, we've done a bit of work with them over the years and the CEO is now the global CEO, Patrick Schmidt. He would talk about, we want our customer experience to be so convenient and so frictionless that people think it's awesome. And that that is. But I think there's that thing of we think a lot about shopping modes. Sometimes people want to shop fast, sometimes people want to shop slow. So it depends on what kind of customer you're serving. And a great customer experience could just be get the fuck out of my way. Like it's convenient, fast, ch, cheap, great customer experience. And I think too often at these conferences and stuff we poo poo that kind of experience. But we shouldn't that's got a role for sure. And the iconic I think is a great example of that.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I think they're doing some fantastic stuff around purpose around, convenience around. They're really tying it together.
Matt Newell: A lot of pieces they really grew out of super convenience. It was pioneer two hour delivery, you know, great returns process, big range, easy to search. So that was where they started and they're trying to round that out now with more purpose, more humanity, more something to believe in, you know, which is smart. And Amazon's the same. Started super convenient. They're trying to innovate more into, you know, more engaging customer experience. And I think, you know, some of the high experience retailers are trying to get more efficient. That's all cool, but I think, you know, just really recognizing that you just got to nail your shopping mode that you're relevant in. And that's the name of the game really.
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Nathan Bush: there anything that pinpoints for you the types of experience that customers are searching for for your brand? Like, I mean, you've got a gut feeling right around it, but is there anything quantitative that you come across or ways to understand?
Matt Newell: I hate your question.
Nathan Bush: I'm gonna end the podcast right there.
Matt Newell: That's a dangerous question. I don't like to answer those sorts of questions because it so depends on the category the customer. And that's sort of a bit of a silver bull kind of all about silver bullets. So yeah, so not really. But for me it's kind of like, yeah, understand the humans that you're dealing with and then just be creative and innovative and awesome. Be attractive and you'll win. You know, I think there are different sorts of people that are attracted to retail. You know, you get the really analytical people who set their financial goals and then they innovate hard, innovate smart to try and hit those goals. Or you get the kind of creatively led people who are just on a mission. Although we're talking about Peter from Lush before, I don't know her very well at all, but I get the Sense that she's a very creatively led person and the numbers follow. I think both approaches are valid and. And it's just kind of a thing of working out your style really.
Nathan Bush: Where do you see. We've both got ad agency backgrounds. Where do you see the role of ad agencies in this whole creative process for retail? Because retail can be its own type of beast at times, like any industry can, I suppose. What role do you see ad agencies playing in that?
Matt Newell: I think it's. I think times are exciting for creative businesses like ours that are consulting into retailers. Because I think if you look at the trajectory of retail, historically it was about the retailer who could get that product, say a case of Coke, onto the gondola end the cheapest. And I could sell it for $24 a case and you could sell it for $23 a case. You would win. That was the job. The manufacturer brands like Co Coca Cola did all the emotional brand building stuff. The retailer's job was get it in there really cheap. And that has completely changed now. So the supply chain process sourcing out of China, the whole supply side of retail has been massively commoditized. There's still room for innovation for sure, but massively commoditized. So now it's. The competitive edge is on demand generation. And that's where agencies like us are really good and useful. So I think retailers are more and more leaning on external people like us who thrive with these sorts of problems, who are inspired looking at what's happening around the world and all those sorts of things. So I think retailers are seeing partners like us as more valuable partners than perhaps it was previously.
Nathan Bush: I think you've got to understand if you're going in as an ad agency, a traditional ad agency, you've got to understand the drivers of retail. Right? Because otherwise that'll come back and bite. You could have the most creative idea in the world, but unless you have those drivers understand the drivers behind them, it'll fall over.
Matt Newell: I think the other interesting thing too is that retail leaders are actually more creative. People are being attracted into retail leadership roles. I think of some of the clients that we work with and it's. They're not as focused on the supply chain stuff. They're focused on how do I win more customers or get them to shop more frequently or get them to buy more when they're in the stores. So I think that bodes pretty well for our industry now.
Nathan Bush: Someone who leads strategy across all of retail, including online, in store, the rest, how do you see and I know you're a retail optimist as well.
Matt Newell: Yeah, same as me.
Nathan Bush: I'm very much a retail optimist. How do you see consumers using physical stores as part of that mix? Do you think physical stores will continue to be the bread and butter of retail making up the majority of sales or do you think that they'll kind of become more of a marketing driven acquisition, brand building asset?
Matt Newell: Good question, Very good question. The answer here I think is it will be both. I think online has got, as in E commerce specifically got more upside, more penetration in the mix for sure. Particularly on that kind of shopping fast kind of area. Like the kind of high commit like groceries like the Marley Spoons and hello freshers of the world that are making that sort of, that side of life super convenient. I think physical experiences where will possibly get more and more theatrical, more like museum, you know, almost performance art, like it'll probably go in, in that direction but, but I think there'll still be, and I think there should be highly functional, efficient retail spaces as well. What you probably lose is that bit in the middle.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Matt Newell: And it'll either be like highly experiential, like, like the Nike flagships around the world or highly functional, you know, like a bunning store. Yes.
Nathan Bush: Kind of stack it high, sell it low.
Matt Newell: Yeah, that's right, stack it high, watch it fly kind of thing.
Nathan Bush: That's it.
Matt Newell: But what about you in terms of, you know, you coming more from the digital angle? What do you think is the role of digital versus stores?
Nathan Bush: I think stores need to be seen as an asset. Right. So I think you, you've essentially got a physical asset there that you can use any way that your customers want to interact with you. Where I get annoyed is when the measure of store success is based on sales per square meter. And that's a very tangible great. I could put this much product in and hope to see it fly out the door. I think what we've seen especially with retailers like Walmart and things, how they're using their click and collect even they launched something where you can buy online
Matt Newell: and it's not only pick up in
Nathan Bush: store but they'll use their stores to bring it out to your car so you don't have to turn the engine off. To me that's a really nice way of rethinking what a physical space can be.
Matt Newell: And then what do you think the digital opportunity is going forward?
Nathan Bush: I think the digital opportunity for that is connecting the experiences. So exactly to your point before is working out what is driving your customers to shop with you. And if it is convenience, how do you make that experience more convenient? Because remember, even in super cheap days when we were talking about things like selling oil, right? If you want to sell oil and a lot of people are thinking about buying oil maybe on a Friday night or a Saturday morning very close to the job at hand, trying to sell them online is not worthwhile because sell them online, even though they're browsing online, it probably won't be delivered to them by Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and by then it's too late, they've missed their weekend. So then you've got to rethink that and go, what's the best way to get this in the hands of my customers who might be browsing at the last minute? How do I get this in their hands on the Saturday morning? That's where click and collect and same day delivery. And that's not even being inventive around the options. But how do you physical store to connect that experience that Friday night to a Saturday morning morning?
Matt Newell: I think, you know, digital makes a lot of sense in terms of the functional stuff, you know, like researching product or I've been in store, now I want to buy, boom, I'll buy my credit card details. In what about like the experiential side from a digital perspective, do you think there's opportunity there or are you talking in terms of inspiring, like inspiring people or.
Nathan Bush: I think there's a huge opportunity on, you know, where we're talking about the two types of customers that really want convenience and that those who want to be totally part of the experience. It's a massive opportunity around engagement, whether that is one on one with a retailer. So hey, connect me with a specialist in. We were talking about bra fitting up there before, you know, a specialist in that. Or actually connect me to other customers and make me part of this community because I may not be shopping with you every day and this might actually even be a once every couple of months, once a year kind of purchase. But hey, I'm going to be talking in these groups constantly keep me engaged there. So I think there is a way to do that job there. I don't think the future of online engagement to physical store is going, hey, let's collect the database, let's find out what Matt's birthday is and when he comes in store. Let's go Happy birthday, Matt. On a digital screen. To me that's not experience, that's just customers will see right through that. It's not adding any value to them.
Matt Newell: It's not Human. I know you've just got my data.
Nathan Bush: Exactly.
Matt Newell: Don't do that.
Nathan Bush: Exactly. It's doing things because we can do them.
Matt Newell: Another example, I hate it when you're shopping at Coles or Woolies and on the screen it says, like on the screen it says, hi, my name is Josie. Thanks for shop. I'm like, well, just you're a human. You're right there. Maybe encourage the humans to say there's something screens shouldn't say, I reckon.
Nathan Bush: Exactly. Exactly. And even here, it's like we're at the Pullman Hotel at the moment and you go into your room and it's a nice welcome screen on your TV when you go in. But it's been the same TV screen forever and I'm kind of like, I've stayed here before.
Matt Newell: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Why haven't you just got the TV set to the station or you know what I mean? Like, that's a real kind of customer insight rather than a personalization, which is adding value on the screen. So, yeah, I think you're onto a good thing. I can't let you leave without asking your opinion on one of the most controversial ads that are going around and which is based on a customer insight. The Burger King Organic Whopper. Obviously seen it.
Matt Newell: Yep.
Nathan Bush: And for anyone who hasn't seen it, they basically came out with an ad based on the fact that they're saying that their burgers are.
Matt Newell: Do you call it preservative?
Nathan Bush: Preservative free. Preservative free. And the burger is covered in mold. So there's kind of two thoughts here. Is that one, it's a great. I think there's general. Is that it's a great customer insight. It's more around the execution of it. They're showing a mouldy burger is either really good advertising or really bad advertising.
Matt Newell: Where do you stand on that? Oh, I am massively pro this campaign. Yeah, massively pro. I think it's incredibly brave. So wins on cut through and memorability and buzz worthiness. Everybody's talking about. About it around the world. So massive win. And I also think a massive dramatization of preservative free. I think that people. Yes, it's disgusting to look at. It's not appetizing. Breaks all those rules. And there has been some discussion around, oh, it's, you know, advertising, kind of, you know, showy advertising. But will it actually work? In my mind, I think it's. It will strongly land the punch that that product is preservative free. And so when you are Weighing up the options of Burger King versus Maccas. And people are conscious of, you know, preservatives and stuff now. So I think in that moment that is a pretty powerful visual that's been seared into people's brains that will be remembered. So I think in that decision making moment it will work. Maybe in the viewing moment it might be a bit off putting, but in the actual decision making moment, am I going to get a Whopper or a Big Mac? I think you'll go, well, the Whopper's got no preservatives in it, so that's a tick. Let's go that way.
Nathan Bush: You don't think that it would. When you're making that decision of, do I put my mouth around this Whopper that you'll be picturing the mouldy burger?
Matt Newell: I. No, I don't, I don't. I think that it will land very strongly the preservative free thing. And that, that's. That's a powerful differentiator. Yeah. I think, you know, there's a great like David Ogilvy quote from years ago. You know, he's a very quotable guy, but he said the customer isn't an idiot. She's your wife. You know, like, she's smart. You know, I think we try to cater to the lowest common denominator and it's a massive mistake to do that. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: I love it, I love it, I love it.
Matt Newell: What's your view? Are you of proud or con?
Nathan Bush: I'm pro.
Matt Newell: You're pro?
Nathan Bush: I'm pro. Obviously I haven't seen any sales figures. I think it's a huge risk and I'm just pro risk. And I think you think about marketing in that category. It's a bloody hard category to market.
Matt Newell: Right.
Nathan Bush: And they've been able to stand out against the much bigger budgets and get that message through. And they actually had something to sell. So I think they've done a really good job there.
Matt Newell: Global CMO there is widely regarded as one of the best in the world, potentially the best in the world. So I think I follow him. I think he's a smart operator.
Nathan Bush: Well, Matt, thank you very much for your insights around finding the truth behind customers and then how to turn that into innovation. It's been fantastic.
Matt Newell: That was fun.
Nathan Bush: That was good.
Matt Newell: Thanks.
Nathan Bush: Where can people find you and find out more about your work, more about
Matt Newell: the General Store, you could Google Matt Newell at the General Store. You could visit thegstore.com and have a look at some of our work.
Nathan Bush: Thank you very much.
Matt Newell: Thanks, Nathan.
Nathan Bush: I really love Matt's thinking and the way that he explains how customer understanding doesn't necessarily equal certainty. Research and insights definitely guide us, but at the end of the day we need to take risks with creative ideas to make real connections. My favorite quote from Matt was the most valuable research tool is a pair of comfortable shoes. So true. And in the times of COVID 19, how I miss that. Whether that be browsing a mall, watching customers decide at the moment of truth, or one of my favorites while on public transport putting my phone away to watch others on theirs. It gives such reliable insights and it sparks ideas that you never knew were there. I firmly believe that more retailers need to spend less time at their desks and more time connecting with customers and customer service teams when the world opens back up. Make Walkarounds a recurring appointment in your calendar. If you like what you've listened to, please leave us a review for seasoned listeners of podcasts. You are probably sick of hearing it, but it really does make a difference. Also, if you have any feedback or suggestions on how we can make the podcast even better, let me know. I love hearing how we can get better. If you want more behind the scenes, Visit add to cart.com and subscribe to our email list. We'll alert you when new episodes are released and give you the summarized versions for when you can't listen straight away. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep adding to cart.
