Alex Weller: Nothing cleared a room faster than saying, we sell rugs online.
Aaron Weller: We realized that people don't necessarily buy a product, they buy a look. So we use content extensively.
Alex Weller: Our team are so passionate about rugs, it's crazy. They call themselves rug addicts.
Aaron Weller: World rug domination. One rug at a time.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to Add to Cart, the podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of E commerce. Every month, Nathan Bush from 12 High and an E commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game. And of course, keep your customers. Adding to Cart.
Nathan Bush: Hello and welcome to Add to Cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and director at E commerce talent agency E Suite. Remember when you'd sit down and usually after you've just had your Viennetta for dessert and watch. Hey, hey. It's Saturday.
Nathan Bush: And it seemed like at every ad
Nathan Bush: break there was a large, shouty man who had a rug store that was closing down. Ah, the good old days, eh? Well, today's guest has created an online rug business called Missamara, which uses beautiful content, styling services and amazing customer service to modernize the business of rug retailing. Today they're on track to surpass $20 million in revenue and are shipping to Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and soon into the US Co founders of Misamara, Alex, Tanya and Aaron Weller, join us to share the story of why and how they are conquering the difficult world of rug retailing. In this conversation, we cover how to engage with customers to the point where they become content creators and your biggest ambassadors for a really low cost. We also cover how augmented reality boosted their conversion rate by up to seven times. Why? Alex Hand wrote 400 notes to customers during COVID And they also share some of the practices they put in play as a couple to keep both their work and their home life happy. And please forgive my croaky voice. When we recorded this, I was only a few hours away from losing my voice. Totally. How good A podcast. So, thanks to our partners, Shopify plus and Signet. And here's our conversation with Alex and Aaron from Missamara.
Nathan Bush: Aaron and Alex, welcome to ADD to Cart.
Alex Weller: Thank you so much for having us.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, thanks so much for having us.
Nathan Bush: Pleasure. Awesome to have you guys. Now, where are you joining us from?
Alex Weller: We're actually joining you from Hong Kong today.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful. And is Hong Kong the normal base?
Alex Weller: It is. We actually relocated here for personal reasons, but it was really great to be here when we started making Our own product. Because it just meant that where, you know, we could get on a plane immediately when product was ready and touch and feel the rugs and roll around on them and all of that. So that's kind of why we moved.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, we're based in Sydney. Sydney. Prior and like a large portion of the team's based over in Sydney as well. Some of them over here in Hong Kong. Yeah. Our suppliers are in Turkey, in China and India. So it's a lot closer to our suppliers.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, makes sense.
Alex Weller: Hong Kong was a great base for us to get somewhere quickly.
Nathan Bush: So to give listeners context in the product that you're rolling around on, can you give us an overview on Ms. Amara and what you guys do?
Alex Weller: Yeah, sorry. Some context.
Nathan Bush: That's my fault. As a host. It's not your fault.
Alex Weller: So we sell rugs online. If you haven't actually heard of us before, we are Ms. Amara. We have an E Commerce store, missamara.com.com au we're in the US New Zealand and Hong Kong, and we sell rugs online.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful.
Nathan Bush: And how long have you been doing it for?
Alex Weller: Since 2014.
Aaron Weller: Yeah. Seven years now.
Alex Weller: Can't believe it.
Nathan Bush: You're old fogies in the e commerce game now.
Alex Weller: We are.
Nathan Bush: And rugs, why Rugs? I couldn't think of a worse product to sell in E commerce than Rugs.
Alex Weller: Do you know what? Everyone asks us that question, and I joke about it because I'm like, when we were first starting out and we would go to those, you know, networking events and things, I would just say, like, nothing cleared a room faster than saying, we sell rugs online. And I don't know why. I think rugs had a really, really bad rap then.
Aaron Weller: They really do.
Alex Weller: Yeah, they really, really did. And, you know, no one wanted to touch the space, but on the other side of things, because no one wanted to touch it, it was such a great opportunity. You know, I guess when you ask why Rugs? I can take you back to kind of the history about why we started. Ms. Amara.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, let's do it.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Alex Weller: Take you back to the OG days. Okay. So Aaron and I, I guess we both come from a technology background, and I guess when Aaron was working at an SEO agency, he and a few of the other guys working there uncovered a bit of an opportunity. So they uncovered that a hell of a lot of people were searching for rugs online. So, you know, where do we buy rugs, how to buy rugs online, delivery of rugs online, things like that. And it kind of got us thinking so we were like, oh, gosh, there's so many people searching for rugs. But we didn't know that many people who bought rugs. So literally, we started asking our friends and our families, and we were like, hey, have you guys, like, ever tried to buy a rug before? I mean, you tried to buy a rug?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah, no, I tried to buy a rug before online as well, prior to Ms. Amara. And, yeah, the experience was.
Alex Weller: It was terrible.
Aaron Weller: It was terrible.
Alex Weller: So we asked our family, we asked our friends, and everyone had the same experience. So out of all of our friends and family, I was the only one who actually bought a rug. But everyone at some stage in their lives wanted to buy a rug. And so the story was exactly the same. It was literally word for word. So, yeah, I really wanted to buy a rug. It's some stage. And, you know, a lot of people got into that inspiration phase where they would hop onto Pinterest. You know what it's like when you're trying to furnish your house and. And pin looks and everything looks so beautiful. But when. When it came to the actual experience of buying the rug, they would go online, and it was just awful. So what I mean by that is, you know, at the time, it was a very masculine industry in terms of, like, you had that cliche of Aladdin flying on the rug and that was it. Or, I mean, I don't know whether you guys. Whether you remember Nathan, but they used to have those TV commercials where there would just be a guy and he'd just be yelling at you.
Aaron Weller: I don't know what.
Alex Weller: Who came up with that.
Nathan Bush: And everyone was closing down. Every rug store was closing.
Alex Weller: Always closing down. Must, must get in there. Last chance. Buy a rug. Now, now, now. And I was literally like a guy sh. Shouting at you. It was awful. And then in terms of the online experience, you know, the e commerce players at that time, they would literally get 50,000 SKUs and they would just dump them on a website. The product photos, no rhyme or reason, no inspirational photos. So people would go through decision paralysis. So eventually, every single person put that need of buying a rug in the too hard basket, and they never bought one.
Aaron Weller: Or they went to a physical store.
Alex Weller: Or they went to a physical store.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Because rug buying, regardless of online or offline, is a pretty difficult task in itself. Right. Because of not knowing where materials come from, not knowing quality. It's a product you probably buy once every, I don't know, five, ten years. Yeah, that's a hard thing in itself. But then to transfer that to online as well, without the touch and feel. What kind of tactics did you guys put in place to try and give people that real experience?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah, I think. And that's something that we really. We identified at the beginning was when we started Misamara, we wanted to remove those barriers to buying. Buying online. I mean, and that's not even online. That's also like, I guess, physical side of things as well. But particularly online, like, you know, buying a rug is dimensionally going to be the biggest thing that you buy in your home. Like it's bigger than a bed. When you roll it out, it's dimensionally like the biggest thing you'll buy for your home. So we knew that like, you know, people, that's also probably one of the more expensive things you'll buy rug, isn't she?
Alex Weller: So in your head you're like, gosh, this is a big commitment, you know.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, it's a big commitment also. Like, you know, it's really important because it can really make or break a space, like choosing the right rug. So, yeah, that's why we set what we set out to basically remove those barriers. So the first thing that we did was a tried at home service. So that the two components are we do free shipping. So all our products are free shipping. Customers don't have to pay for the shipping. And then we have it a tried at home service. So a customer can buy on buy from us and they receive the rug. And if they don't like it within 30 days, they can send it back to us and we'll cover all the costs. So as long as the rug's in original condition, we'll cover the shipping there and the shipping back.
Alex Weller: Yeah. So our company will outlay for that the courier expense, which a lot of the time is quite sizable.
Aaron Weller: Yes. Sizeable, because also we're shipping large products. But that's all part of kind of our offering and it's really important part of it. So the other thing that we do is we also, we realize that people don't necessarily buy a product, they buy a look. So we use content extensively. So it's probably one of the biggest things that we use to basically make sure people understand what the rug's going to look like in a home. So we'll work with different people and basically work with different people and get real shots of rugs in their home. And that's really what sells the rugs.
Alex Weller: Yeah. And I know for us especially, you know, with our social and our Instagram, we definitely aim at the very Least to inspire people. So you might not be shopping for a rug at some stage. At that point in time you're following us because you want to be inspired by beautiful content. And some point in your life you might want to buy a rug and hopefully you're going to do it from us.
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Nathan Bush: Is that part of changing the tone around how you sell rugs? Like you mentioned before, around that male shouty voice being known for rugs, was that when you first launched Misamaru? Was that original, that approach to rugs, that content driven approach?
Aaron Weller: No, it was probably something we figured out pretty early on.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Aaron Weller: So probably in the first, probably year or a year and a half, I think we really figured that out was something we kind of learned over time.
Alex Weller: We did a bit of market research into who is the decision maker in the household and surprise, surprise, in 95% of the cases it was the female. So you know, we were really excited that, you know, where was that female brand that was connecting with those customers. So that's kind of where we came up with the name Ms. Amara. So Ms. Is obviously that that feminine touch and Amara is kind of a nod to the Middle Eastern origins of where rugs were made.
Nathan Bush: Ah, I was wondering about the Amara side. Didn't know that.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Cool.
Aaron Weller: So one of the other things that we did as well, we have interior stylists in house who basically the customer comes along and there's a lot of different rugs and they need help making that final decision. So whether they're kind of further down, further down the path, they need that kind of that. Having interior stars will give them that confidence to make the decision, the final decision. Or maybe they just want to like, you know, basically get some, get some options from interior stars. So yeah, we hire interior stars to help our customers make a decision on what they want to buy.
Nathan Bush: So do those interior stylists work one on one with customers or is it more from a content perspective?
Alex Weller: One on One, they get a completely freestyling advice, customized consult with an interior designer. So, yeah, I guess when we first launched, we were like, well, you know, we could hire customer service agents, but what we really want is we want our customers to be speaking to people that they would see as authorities in the space that know design, you know, that know how to choose the right rug for each space. That makes sense for us. So we hired interior designers, and it's really, really simple. So they just ask the customer, great, you're looking for a rug, you know, are there any key criteria like, do you have kids, do you have pets? Those kinds of questions? And then we might show them a few different styles and say, hey, you know, out of these five pictures, you know, which style do you gravitate towards the most? So that we. Their style and their taste. And then every customer gets a curated collection of rugs specifically for their space. And we also ask them to send us photos of their space as well.
Nathan Bush: That's pretty amazing to get photos. Like when we talk about customer data, to have photos of your customer's space that your products are going into, that's pretty phenomenal, right?
Alex Weller: They are so happy to send photos. Like, sometimes they'll actually call out interior stylists and say, hey, do you mind if I FaceTime you? Because I literally want to walk you around my.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: So how does it work at the moment? Is it live chat with those stylists?
Alex Weller: So the live chat are generally the first responders and they will collate the data. So in terms of like, okay, does this customer have a pet? Do they need it to be kid friendly? And the first responders of the first responders, there may be an interior stylist there that can just. A lot of the time a customer's on site and they're ready to purchase and say, hey, I just want to run this rug by you. This is my space. Do you think it's going to work? And they literally just need that nudge and so that they, they feel an authority has looked at it and said, yeah, that's going to look great, go for it. But if that person requires a more in depth styling consult, we may pass them on. We're now starting to book these styling calls so people can actually go into our stylist calendar and book a time with them.
Nathan Bush: That's cool. So your customer service and your stylists are separate teams and separate services?
Aaron Weller: No, they're part of the same team. So the way we structure is they're part of the same team, but in terms of when they're available first to the customer, like, you know, the customer's coming along. Because we do 24. 7 live chat because we want to make sure that someone always there to answer the basic questions for a customer who's ready to order to basically be able to get the kind of the basic questions. But then the styling team is there ready if somebody wants some styling advice.
Nathan Bush: Awesome. I love when e commerce businesses set up their customer service team to not just be the complaints department, that they set them up to actually be a sales team as well.
Alex Weller: And that's it. Our team are so passionate about rugs, it's crazy. They call themselves rug addicts.
Nathan Bush: Don't Google it. So if we've got that in place at the moment, because I've got the feeling and I've obviously browsed the site that you deliver this exceptional service, you deliver some really great inspirational content to get customers really excited. Do you find that that gives you more leverage over price not to have to be so promotion or price reliant if you have those foundations in place?
Aaron Weller: Definitely. Definitely. So if you look at us compared to our competitors, we are definitely more expensive. We still run promotions because it's an important part of the sales process. But in terms of, you look at our pricing, even taking into account promotions, we are more expensive. But we do offer a lot more than our competition. So it really does allow us to add that.
Alex Weller: And it's funny that you ask that, Nathan, because a lot of customers, one of the really common tickets that we get in customer service is customers will send through a ticket and they'll say, hey, I've noticed this rug. I can get a similar rug at this competitor for, you know, however much can you match the price? And we actually respond back and we always say, you know, unfortunately we can't match the price. But, you know, we can also offer the try it at home service. So if it's not right, it's completely risk free. Also, we can have an interior stylist look at your choice and look at your space and see if this is going to work for you and set you up with the best chance of success with this rug. And nine times out of 10, they will always say, okay, that's fine, I've purchased.
Nathan Bush: Speaks to value, doesn't it? Like when you're not always the cheapest, it just goes, you know, we're going to be around, we're going to be here for you.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Especially in a product like that. It was funny. Just casting my mind back to the Conversation we had with Pip from Jumbled. Have you seen her stuff?
Alex Weller: I haven't.
Nathan Bush: Really cool retailer out of orange here, but does a lot of homeware stuff. It's not cheap, so they sell, you know, a couple of grand artwork pieces. And she was saying that a lot of their customers hesitate even when they're buying two $3,000 pieces to pay over a hundred dollars in shipping.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: And it's kind of like, well, if you're buying something worth that much, wouldn't you want to pay shipping? And she. Her thought was that offering, not offering shipping actually made people question whether things would arrive safely and in good nick. Have you had that problem at all with offering free shipping on your rugs?
Alex Weller: Is the easy answer.
Aaron Weller: Shipping's definitely a challenge. Definitely a challenge. Yeah.
Alex Weller: It definitely breaks my heart when, like, we offer that really, really high level of service. And let's say at the very last mile, a courier may have had a bad experience with the customer. That kind of lets it all down. But, you know, where we have a product that's extremely challenging, unfortunately, we have a product that the internally couriers call us ugly freight. So not. Not a lot of people even accept our products.
Aaron Weller: Rugs packed go up to like 3 meters long and up to like 55 kilos, basically. So not. Not even for one person to carry a rug could be almost impossible.
Alex Weller: So, yeah, but it's a work in progress, and we're definitely looking at improving the delivery. But as you mentioned, like, it doesn't come cheap.
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Nathan Bush: And do you have many people taking you up on that change of mind return service?
Alex Weller: Yeah, we do.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. People definitely take us up on that. Probably less so than you would expect, but, you know, definitely people take it up. And that's all factored into our pricing and everything like that. So it's not something that alarms us or anything like that. But yeah, definitely people make use of it.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Awesome. You guys obviously put so much effort into customer happiness at the core of your business. What would be your number one tip for keeping customers happy the long term?
Alex Weller: Okay, I'll go first. I would definitely say listen and always tell the truth. Always. So, I mean, especially with our customers, the way that we've trained our customer service team is don't talk, just listen. So even with our interior stylists, they might ask them some questions, but their job is really to get as much information as they can from the customer. And similarly, you know, if a customer's had a bad experience, you know, they're not going to want to know all the reasons why they had the bad experience. At the end of the day, they just want to be heard. They might want to vent and that's fine. It's a big purchase, you know, purchasing a rug and if it doesn't go perfectly, we're there to listen to you. And as I said, always tell the truth. Aaron.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, I think you, you covered off the same thing as I would have said. And to give you an idea, like, I guess the transparency piece is really important. Like Alex said, it's not. The customers don't always want to hear every little detail about what happened. At the end of the day, you've got to listen to them and make sure they've being heard. But at the same time, like we're transparent when like for example, during COVID like a lot of companies, we definitely had really big supply chain challenges, you know, had increase in demand and then at the same time supply chain disruptions, especially our supplies in India that were shut down for two or three months. So at the same time as getting a really big increase in demand, we had big disruptions in the supply chain. So, you know, we take pre orders, so there's a big, big challenge there. About originally we had some original dates there and they had to change multiple times as we had all. And it just supplies in the end that had supply chain issues. It's been across the whole supply chain, like in the ports in India, then getting the ports in Sydney, getting a container on a ship. And you know, like previously, it's very predictable and we could predict all of that quite clearly and we could communicate that to the customer in a really clear, concise way. But during COVID that kept changing. So customers started to get more and more frustrated. So we had to really, really sort of explain to them exactly what was happening and sort of be quite open with them. Alex actually wrote a really big open letter about some of challenges that we faced.
Alex Weller: About 400 customers letters.
Nathan Bush: No way.
Alex Weller: Yeah. And I sent them a bath mat and I said, I'm so sorry.
Nathan Bush: What kind of feedback did you get from customers when they received a handwritten note in a bath mat?
Alex Weller: Oh, look, I think a lot of people really appreciated it. And we definitely got photos of the bath mat and they said, look, we got the bath mat. We're so. I think they just really appreciated being kept in the loop, like with our customers. Like they're never just a number to us, they're real people. And I always put myself in the same scenario, like obviously I'm a shopper online as well. And I ordered things, and the same thing happened to me, and I felt that frustration. And obviously, although it's not out of. Although it's not in our control, it's the last thing you want a customer to experience.
Aaron Weller: So, I mean, yeah, because at the end of the day, like, they're frustrated either way, whether it's in our control or not.
Alex Weller: Exactly.
Aaron Weller: Yeah. So.
Nathan Bush: And do you think that it helps when you've got the founders still involved in the business and central to it all, where that transparency and communication comes from? Alex and Aaron, rather than a brand or a corporate entity, does that help keep customers happy?
Alex Weller: Definitely, I would say. Definitely. So when I. I did a few things. I mean, before I sent out the apology email, I also sent them an email. And in that email, I gave them my direct email and said, hey, guys, like, this is what's happened. I'm extremely apologetic. If you have concerns, here's my email address. It's my real email address. Please email me. And I did get a lot of emails back, and I think they were. I mean, the aim is always to be approachable with our customers and to feel like they have a direct link. Link to us.
Aaron Weller: Yeah. And people. People want to buy from people.
Alex Weller: Exactly.
Aaron Weller: Obviously, brands, really important. It's super, super important. But they also want to know there's another person at the end of the line they can. They can speak to and who they can, you know, so it's really important that we're involved, and I think that really helps. And people know that as well as also the rest of our team as well.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Has there been any one particular customer story in terms of customer happiness that's really stood out to you guys, where rugs really made a huge difference in someone's life?
Alex Weller: So we actually have, do you know, Slack. So we have slack and we have a channel, and it's called customer feedback. And I just think, you know, no matter where you work in a business, if you work in operations, if you work in hr, if you work in product, it's so important for our team to see that Cinderella story and what we're doing for custom. So, as I said, customers always send us photos of their house. And when they get their rug, they are beyond excited. We don't ask them to send photos back, but almost always they will send us a photo back and they'll say, this was the stylist. And it's always the same story. She recommended a rug I never thought I would go for. It's not normally my style. I'm so in love with it. Here's a photo of my baby playing on it or my dog playing on it. And we just post those daily because it's just. It's so important, I think, for our whole team to see that. And we've actually just started sharing them on social. So we've started a little regular piece that we run called Real Life Rug Stories, hashtag realliferugstories. And just I think there's no better thing to show customers, as I said, is that Cinderella story, the makeover piece, and the fact that they're real authentic customers and that we always ask for their permission, obviously. And they're always so happy to share their name and their location and. Yeah, something that's really important.
Nathan Bush: That's so cool, because one of the things that I love when I was browsing the site that I loved what you do is you do the full win, a full refund competition. Can you tell us about that? Because that kind of goes along a similar train of thought, doesn't it?
Alex Weller: Yeah, definitely. So, as I said, people are always sharing photos of their makeover. And that's. Honestly, we just. Every single time, we still get goosebumps. Like, we love seeing them, our whole team. So we just, one day we just thought, like, if this is how many we're getting back, that are people sharing. Like, what about the people that aren't sharing? Like, how can we actually see all of them? We wanted to see them and we wanted to. Yes, we wanted to get the content, but we just love seeing them. And that's the truth. So what we did is we said, okay, guys, like, you've gone away. You've bought a rug. You've used our stylist advice. Show us how you styled it now. So we ask customers to just take a photo of their space and just tag us in it. That's it. Or use our hashtag. And every month, what we do is we choose our four favorites and we share them on our Instagram platform. Because, as I said, like, nothing is more authentic than a customer's real house and their real experience. You know, that's better than any influencer could ever do for us. A real Life Rug Story. So we chose four finalists, and we posted them and we said, hey, these are the four finalists of the month. You have to vote for your favorite. So that's when we put the call out to our customers to vote for our favorite. And all they have to do to vote is just to simply like the post they like the most and tag two of their Friends. So at the end of that voting period, the customer whose space was liked the most gets a full refund off their rug. So they get that rug for free. And then we randomly draw a voter where the voter and two of the friends that they've tagged gets a free $250 gift voucher with us.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Alex Weller: That's kind of mental.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Because that's one of the things that I think a lot of brands are struggling with at the moment is organic reach and real content for those social. So it's kind of solving two problems at once, isn't it?
Aaron Weller: Definitely, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Solving both of those. Now, if we take it to the other end of the scale with technology, I noticed that you put a lot of effort into augmented reality, and you mentioned before that a rug can drastically change what a room looks like. And I'm assuming this is what your augmented reality is trying to help customers get. Get their heads around. Can you tell us how that works?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, sure. So basically, we've wanted to do augmented reality for a very long time.
Alex Weller: From day one.
Aaron Weller: From day one? Yeah, basically from day one. But we were very picky about how we implemented it. Like, a lot of solutions, a lot of frameworks and stuff that are out there that you can do it in a mobile app or you can do it through specific mobiles and things like that.
Alex Weller: Who wants to download another app these days? No one wants to download another app.
Aaron Weller: Not everybody has an iPhone or the latest iPhone. Like, there's a lot of limitations. So we really wanted to make sure that something was really easy and didn't take users from our website. That was really kind of the key thing in browser and be able to basically be used on any phone or desktop, which was really key. And so basically we've got a solution in place now that does that. So you can take a photo of your room from your phone, or you can just upload a photo of any room and you can try any rug inside the room. So you can change any rug. You can choose the size so you can see different sizes, how it looks. You can turn it around and it very realistically shows it in your room. That's not perfect because again, it is in browser, but it is really.
Alex Weller: I think it's pretty good.
Aaron Weller: It's pretty good definitely for in browser tech. Like, it's definitely very good. And it really just gives that customer a way of seeing what the rug sound look like. And yeah, it's really, really works. These customers, we know customers who use the tool have a Much higher chance of converting than customers who don't use it.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, brilliant. And did you develop that yourselves or did you partner with someone to get that technology?
Aaron Weller: Good question. No, we partnered with another company to help us with that. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, beautiful. And you may not want to give it away, but do you have any figures on what kind of uplift in conversion you see from those who use augmented reality versus don't?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah, sure. Depending on market and scenario and stuff, like between four and seven times.
Nathan Bush: Wow, that's massive.
Alex Weller: Yeah. And I mean a lot of people, you might think that we, you know, developed the augmented reality solution from a sales perspective, but also if you think about it from the other end, it's drastically helped with our return rates. Right. Because if you can actually visualize that rug in the space by clicking a button and not ordering a 50 kilo rug and go, oh, I don't quite like those colors with my couch and then move on to the next one, then you know, you've obviously we've saved a lot in terms of that whole return process.
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Nathan Bush: Do you find many people are using that AR to then share what their rooms might look like with either partners or just into their social feed?
Alex Weller: Yeah, absolutely. So people are sharing it on social, which is so exciting. I go onto Instagram tagged all the time. All the time. And people are actually organically. We haven't reached out to them at all, but they're doing tutorials on how this is how you use the Misamara VRs, which is like insane.
Aaron Weller: Asking, doing tutorials or asking like for feedback from their followers like, oh, is this one better?
Alex Weller: So they will choose like 10 different rugs, put them in their space and ask their. So which rug do you like better? A or B? B or C? And it's just, it's been so great for us.
Nathan Bush: That's cool. And do you have to shoot your products any differently than what you were before to enable it in?
Alex Weller: No, not at all. We just use the product photos to create a 3D model to create that augmented reality environment?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, but I think for every product. It's different for rugs in particular, Obviously rugs are flat, which makes it it easier to build a 3D model from as opposed to like, you know, maybe another product like a couch or a table or something like that, it's going to be a little bit more complicated.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Aaron Weller: So I guess from that point of view, like, yeah, it's, it is a little bit easier. It's just a bit harder to get texture and stuff like that on a rug.
Nathan Bush: Oh, cool. And is there any other E commerce technology that you guys just couldn't live without?
Aaron Weller: I think that's an interesting question because I think when it comes to a particular technology outside, like, obviously ar like, I think in terms of the way we look at technology, it's always about what's the problem we're trying to solve. As an end result, we actually cycle through a lot of different tech at different times. So in terms of is a particular piece of software or anything that we use and that we would recommend, it's never the case. It's usually like looking at what's the end goal that we're trying to achieve. So for example, we started with magenta and that was challenging and we moved it for Shopify and it allowed us to move a lot quicker. But we have never ruled out that. Will we look at, will we outgrow Shopify at some point? Will there be a point where we need to look at something that gives us more flexibility? But for now, Shopify is great for us because it's allowed us to grow very quickly. It's allowed us to implement things very quickly. So it's always about what is it that we're trying to achieve, what's the strategy and what are we trying to
Alex Weller: achieve at the moment.
Aaron Weller: So, for example, product recommendations is another one that's really important to us for our product is using product recommendations. Because people definitely don't know what they're going to buy for a rug the first time they come in. You know, we all know that they're looking for a rug. Like, we know that they're looking for a rug, but we don't necessarily know what it is. So those product recommendations are super, super important. But we've been through like two different vendors now and then we're on to looking at our third vendor to basically do that and also like looking at doing it ourself in house. You know, those are kind of things that we're weighing up. So we're never kind of stuck to a particular technology or platform. It's more yeah.
Alex Weller: So an answer to your.
Nathan Bush: But I can imagine it only gets harder too, because what you got, how many countries do you sell into now?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, good question. We sell to four countries now.
Nathan Bush: Countries.
Aaron Weller: Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, US So
Nathan Bush: that's four currencies as well.
Aaron Weller: Four currencies. You have four different stores as well. So you know, we operate them all as separate shopify stores because there's localized, there's lots of localization that we do. So first of all charging the local currency and then also like delivery is different by country quite a lot. And pricing because of the delivery and that side of things.
Nathan Bush: It's a lot of work in there with four different stores, isn't it?
Aaron Weller: Yeah, definitely. So like every technology solution as well, we'll look at. We obviously try to find one that works across all the markets, but sometimes, you know, it might be one works in one market but not the other. And how do we implement it across all of them to kind of make still that seamless experience?
Alex Weller: Our head of ops has gray hair for sure.
Nathan Bush: And just last question on that, on the country piece. Have you got warehouses in each country or are you shipping centrally?
Aaron Weller: Not in each country. So we have our main warehouse right now in Australia. So it's a warehouse we run ourselves. And we run it ourselves for a reason is because again, rugs are bulky. Standard warehouses, actually it's quite challenging to store rugs in. They're not really built to store rugs. So yeah, Australian warehouse services, Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong. We are looking at setting up our. We're in the process of setting up a warehouse in New Zealand. So we are going to go down that process, set one up there. But for Hong Kong, it's a relatively smaller market. So we do ship from Australia most of the time, except for like a returns warehouse in Hong Kong. And then in the US we use like a. Another. Another warehouse. A third party warehouse. For now, just while we've launched that. It's only been there for three months now. So we wanted to use a third party warehouse, but it did. It took us a long time to get that warehouse to find a company that could actually support rugs. And they still have their own set
Alex Weller: of challenges amidst Covid.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, we couldn't go visit. We couldn't go visit them. No side visits, videos, tours and stuff like that. And still, because they haven't done rugs before, it's challenging for them. So yeah, one of those challenges of selling a bulky, ugly freight. So.
Nathan Bush: Oh, good fun. Hey, does that explain why you've Gone into party shirts now.
Alex Weller: Oh, gosh, that's a whole nother story.
Aaron Weller: Can we get a little bit of this a lot easier?
Alex Weller: You gotta hear the story. Okay. So basically, for as long as we could remember, when we're in tech, we used to do this every Friday. We did party shirt Fridays, which meant like every single person had to wear the most offensive, colorful in your face shirt always. And we just, it was such a great cultural piece because, you know, even the most like, sheltered of people and like, would just have so much fun with Fridays. And it's company policy. We still do it every Friday. We've expanded it to like party shirt, dress jackets, pants. The other day someone said, oh, I'm wearing party underwear. Which I don't know how HR feels about that. But so that was our, our company policy that, you know, we did that and we just found it was, it was so great for our culture. And then I guess Aaron approached me when the opportunity for YP Threads came up and he said, you know, look at this business. I feel like it's very us. What do you think? And kind of asked me about it and it was not something that I, I thought that, you know, I didn't, definitely didn't jump at the opportunity, but what kind of pushed me to do it was when I went on their social, I really saw a lot of, I mean, they're completely different businesses to Ms. Amara. Right. But I saw so many similarities in terms of the community engagement. So you know, people with rugs, they love to take photos and share. As I said, it was the same thing with YP Threads. Like they loved to have, have photos of themselves in these loud, offensive shirts and they were sharing it off the back of themselves organically. And every day we would get customer tags and shares and all of that. There was a little Facebook group that had formed just of the YP Threads community. So it kind of had that X factor that, you know, Ms. Amara had. And that's when I kind of said, yeah, let's, let's do this. Obviously we have the team set up and that was, was really kind of beneficial. But gosh, I remember when we did acquire the business and then we had to explain like give live chat, a bit of a 101 on the brand voice and the culture and how it's going to be different to Ms. Samora.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, Polar opposite customers, polar opposite, very similar business. So obviously like a direct to consumer business using content really extensively. Like same tech platform or very similar tech platform in the back end. You know, we Run our own warehouse and everything already. So it's. In terms of that side of it was bolt on. There was definitely a lot of work for us around. Yeah. The brand piece and the, you know, the brand voice and the product as well. Obviously there's still some learnings and stuff for us there following we took over the business.
Nathan Bush: So do you have a very big crossover with the team who might be working on both brands at the same time?
Aaron Weller: So in terms of logistics, it's the same team and marketing is the same team. But content. Content and customer service are separate.
Alex Weller: Yes.
Aaron Weller: So kind of the two. The key components around where it really does differ for the customer, basically.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. Nice. Because I was thinking, yeah, from a content perspective, it'd be hard to switch from that Ms. Amara mindset it at times and then go into.
Nathan Bush: Into the party.
Alex Weller: Being true to the brand and tone of voice is just so important. So, you know, I couldn't just, you know, get one of my Missama customer service stylists to all of a sudden start talking to, you know, a completely different demographic. It just was not going to work. And, and let's just say like, the, the tickets look very different.
Nathan Bush: When you acquired YP threads and you got under the covers the. There. Was there anything that you found about that business that you went, oh, that's really interesting. We can apply this to Ms. Amara.
Alex Weller: Putting me on the spot there.
Aaron Weller: Such different products. Yeah, there's such different. There's definitely a lot of learnings. I think the other way around.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
[Ad]: From.
Aaron Weller: From the misamara side to the YP side. But yeah, I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now.
Alex Weller: I mean, one interesting thing is that, like, I think, I'm sure that there's something in our nature as humans that we are drawn to color. So that's why, you know, party shirts, like, they're so colorful and we're naturally kind of like, drawn to them. And that's why every guy wearing a loud party shirt puts it on their Tinder profile and gets DMs about the shirts. And every guy at that barbecue wearing the offensive shirt is going to get people asking them about their shirt. The same kind of thing. We kind of of we started putting more of our colorful rugs out there in terms of, like, content. Because the natural buying behavior that we've seen is that if we share colorful content, really bright content, humans are naturally drawn to it and they're going to click on it, but they leave with the safer option.
Aaron Weller: Yeah. They see the statement piece and they're like, wow, that looks, you know. But then they. They end up going with the safer option, which they feel a bit more.
Alex Weller: They check out with the safer option.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that's really interesting because especially as we're kind of. I feel like we're coming out of that minimalist direct to consumer design and design starting to get a bit more brave again. And so that's really interesting what you're saying about actually go really brave, but then still have those safe options for customers.
Alex Weller: Yeah, and it's funny as well because we did a survey recently to our customers. So randomly, if you're on the website, you can get picked to do a survey. And we just asked one question. It was, what brings you to Miss America today? And we were sure that it was going to be, you know, the freestyling or the try it at home service or like one of these amazing USPs that we assumed that customers would say, but they literally just said the range, the range of rugs. That was the most common response and by like, far and away the most common response. So they really appreciate having those brave options and those colorful options in amongst the neutral options and the safe options.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, it's really interesting as well. You can see some of those colorful, like those more statement pieces. They can get a lot more interactions. But then, yeah, you look at the sales figures in comparison and they end
Alex Weller: up just super interesting.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, it's quite interesting. Buying behavior.
Alex Weller: There must be psychology around it.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Oh, big time. We all want to be the peacock, but we're probably not all brave enough to be the peacock. Right. That was interesting, what you were saying, that around the range, do you find that range is really important once customers shop with you once and have a really great experience? Because my feeling is that customers actually don't want to shop around. Once they find something that they like and they have a great experience with, they want to kind of go, just look after me. Do you find that the range is more important for those customers coming back to give them something new?
Alex Weller: Definitely. I mean, in terms of our range, we definitely try and not only offer what we think the customer might want. So I head up the product team in terms of the designs and I'm also also looking for product gaps in terms of our range. So what is actually not available in Australia at the moment when I'm doing like a product release for Australia? So, like, one example of that is. So, I mean, I don't know how versed you are in rugs, Nathan, but the really Luxe wool Berber rugs that are like handmade in Morocco. That kind of feel. So the only place you could really get that was a really high end store where I'm talking. It would be like 20,000 Australian dollars and there was really nothing else in the market like it. So. So, okay, we knew that people wanted them and they weren't available at an affordable price range. So we really tried to make sure that we service that gap. And yes, obviously the cost of the product is more, but we didn't have to charge 20,000 Australian dollars. We could do an in between price that made everyone happy. And because actually we work directly with the suppliers, you know, they get more back, the customers are getting a better, better price. And yeah, the product gaps is something that we definitely look at in terms of our range. But in terms of the repeat customer, as you said, yes, we definitely do get customers who I'm even surprised, you know, they're like, okay, I've got a rug now for my study, my bedroom now I want one for the kitchen. And we're like, oh, okay, dream customer. And then they're saying, you know, I've referred my grandma who's never shopped online before, I've referred my sister in law. And that's, that's like really what we love.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that's cool. I know you guys also own a digital agency. Like it just feels like we're layering on businesses on top of here. I'm like, how do you even sleep? Tell us about the digital agency and how that was that Pre Missamara Digital
Aaron Weller: Agency is actually post Misamara. So when Alex and I moved to Hong Kong, I was an investor previously in a SEO and digital marketing agency in Australia. And when I left Australia, I sold out of that agency and we came to Hong Kong. And you know, when you move to a new country, you see a lot of the challenges when you go there. But Hong Kong's a really interesting market. It's in some ways it's very advanced. In some ways it's quite backwards. Physical retail here is huge, is absolutely huge. And rents and stuff are insane because everything's in such an enclosed space. People are used to kind of walking out and going to, you know, the local store or something like that. So as a result, a lot of like digital and marketing has lagged a lot in Hong Kong. So we realized that after setting up Misamara over here and sort of going through the process of working on a business and sort of seeing, trying to find things in Hong Kong as well. And just, you know, the normal process that you do when you're in your country, like, where do I go for this? Where do I go for that? I just realized, like, there's just a lot of things, like missing, like, you know, people or companies just aren't out there getting visitors. So we realized there was an opportunity to start an agency here, taking the knowledge we'd done from building businesses in Australia, as well as building an agency in Australia, and taking that sort of digital knowledge, both on digital and marketing side, to basically improving what the offerings were here in Hong Kong.
Alex Weller: What we wish we knew when we started a business.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: And have you had the awkward situation where you've had not so much a competitor, but someone in very close to Misamara wanting to come to your digital agency for help, and you've had to go, this is a bit close for us.
Aaron Weller: We've had definitely situations not where it's too close. We've had situations where it's helped us. So, like, you know, there's not a lot of, I guess, pure play rug companies, especially in Hong Kong. I'd say we're the only one in Hong Kong in terms of that. Like, most of the time, if they sell homewares, it's usually a plus to say, hey, actually, you know, we own Ms. Amara as well, so we really get homewares. So, you know, you're in good hands. We haven't had that awkward conversation where we've had to say, no, because you sell just rugs. Look, it's not gonna. It's not gonna work just because. Yeah. It's unlikely to happen in such a small market. Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. Okay, getcha now. The last layer that we'll put on top of this story is that you guys, as I understand, actually a couple working together in this business.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, yeah.
Alex Weller: Way to make it awkward right at the end.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: I was, like, saving that one up my sleeve in the run sheet. We've. Right at the start, I was like, I'm going to keep that one. I'm going to hold it back. How does that work for you guys? When you're managing so many businesses and you're so busy and working as a
Alex Weller: couple, how do you do it? Honestly, we love it. Like, we can't imagine anything else. And I feel like a little bit of a responsibility here to speak, because I think couple founders get a really bad rap. I mean, I will share that. At one stage we were looking for investors, and it was actually like a big turnaway point that we were a couple Founder. But I just, I think about it in terms of the way that we operate is we're very clear, like work is work and personal is personal. But we also have very clear things that we own. Right. So what we're in charge of, and I know that I have the final say on anything kind of creative, stylized, brand wise. And I know Aaron has the final say when it comes to finance and all of those decisions. So we keep that really separate. But it's worked for us so well. And I think it's funny because I always say to someone because they'll say, you know, oh, I could never work with my partner. I could never work my partner. And you know how if you're working a job and your partner's working a job and you come home from a really hard day and you'll turn to your partner and you'll try and explain to them what happened at work. So you have to explain who Jenny is and what happened with Mark and the argument that happened and all of that. We literally can come home and just be like, how about that thing that happened today? We don't have to get each other up to speed. We know everything that's going on at all times.
Nathan Bush: Is that just through a slack channel that you guys talk to each other. Other.
Alex Weller: Oh, that's, that's another story. But no, no, no, no. We talk to each other. And the funny thing is, like, when we first started doing it, we had this rule that as soon as we came home, we wouldn't talk about work. And that was our rule. But what we found is that made us so frustrated. So I think what we've kind of accepted is the, A lot of the reason why we're together as, as a couple is because we're interested in business and we're interested in, you know, we have similar interests in terms entrepreneurship and things like that. So rather than kind of deny that, we're like, let's just lean into it. You know what? Like, we like talking about business. We just need to make sure that we have that personal time as well. Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Weller: It's still really important to make sure that we have that personal time and that non work time where we're during that time. Like, hey, okay, let's just, let's just have now and not talk about work. It always comes back. But it's about putting in that effort to have that a bit separate because you do need a break from work, work. And that's really, really important to make sure you kind of refresh and that sort of Thing. So you're always talking about it all the time. Eventually you're going to get exhausted. So you do need that time where you can just kind of unwind and, you know, have, have other conversations. So instead of like setting really boundaries, like this time, we can't talk about that time. We don't. We're a bit more fluid with it. So a lot of the time we
Alex Weller: do talk about we want the same things.
Aaron Weller: Right.
Alex Weller: That's the difference. When you're working with your partner, your goals are their goals, their goals are your goals. And I mean, that's really important. I think no matter what business partner you have, you need to have the same goals, you want the same things, you want the business to go in the same direction.
Aaron Weller: We have the same. We're aligned on what we want personally in terms of our goals and what we want from a business perspective and the values about how we get there. We're completely aligned there. We're very, very similar in that way, but we're very different in terms of our skill sets. So I think that's why it works so well. And we both really, really love what we do. Like, we really love the businesses that we're running. It really brings a lot of joy to us. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: And that's the thing you said. You know, you can obviously be very protective around work bleeding into personal. But then on the other hand, I'm sure you've got a lot of personal that bleeds into work as well, which kind of works for both sides.
Alex Weller: You know, it's. It's when I know, like, for example, if Aaron's going through something, personally, I'm aware of that. Whereas maybe if he was just a business partner, I wouldn't be aware of it. I wouldn't know why he was stressed out. We know when we could, we need to alleviate pressure off one or the other because we see if someone's working too much or working over time. So we know when to kind of step in. And in terms of like case studies, in terms of like couple co founders, you know, you've got Canva.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Alex Weller: Canvas, a really big example co founders. Right. Eventbrite as well, couple co founders. So I definitely think that there are advantages. So. So if anyone's listening and they ever, you know, I don't want to start something here, but if you're thinking about doing it, I would be the biggest advocate. 100%.
Nathan Bush: That's brilliant. Do you remember what that investor said to you that was anti couple co founders.
Alex Weller: Honestly, I have a screenshot of the text that I read all the time just to give myself a little bit of validation.
Nathan Bush: Well, well done. You've got, you've kicked that one, haven't you?
Alex Weller: Basically, I think they just said it could be problematic in hyphens, that it could be problematic. And look, at the end of the day, I completely understand where they're coming from. Right. I guess. Also, I think that we're quite realistic in terms of, like, if, let's say, for example, our personal relationship breaks down, we will still be able to separate the business. And personally, we have a plan for that. Not that I think we'll ever come to that.
Nathan Bush: We won't deep dive into that, into that topic.
Aaron Weller: The thing is about working together as well, and that's the important thing. If it's work, it's work, and we understand that. So we can have a frank conversation with each other at work about performance with each other, and that's something we can have. And we can always say, hey, look, take it back. This is a work conversation, nothing personal. And we're able to, it's really, really important to separate that work and personal side and, and really be clear about that conversation. And we're able to do that. We know that work is work and, you know, personal is personal. So when it comes to work, then we can, we can have those conversations and, and we're working and it's, it's about work. And if it's personal, there's something different. We can, you know, it's a different kind of communication.
Nathan Bush: I, I don't, I personally, I don't think it's anything people should be scared of. I think people should aspire to it. You know, if you're in, in for life with this person, then in business as well, and it kind of makes sense.
Alex Weller: And it's something that we're really proud of, to be honest.
Aaron Weller: And we say as well, like, we see it as if we were both running separate businesses, we wouldn't actually see very much of each other. We would actually be, because we work very hard. And, you know, running a business, it takes a lot of time. So we wouldn't actually see each other that much. We're both running our own business separately. So the fact that we're doing it together, we do actually. You get to see each other more.
Alex Weller: I mean, not the time at work substitutes for quality time. I will say that.
Nathan Bush: You just didn't get out of date night then, did you?
Alex Weller: No.
Aaron Weller: But even, even if you're working together and it's not work, it still is. We are going to work every day. You do get to see each other.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Aaron Weller: If we. Imagine if we weren't. It was separated during that time, we'd actually. Yeah, there'll be a lot less time with each other.
Alex Weller: Basically we bring our dog to work as well.
Aaron Weller: Yeah.
Alex Weller: You know, that's cool.
Nathan Bush: It's a family affair.
Alex Weller: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Guys, I've loved our chat. Thank you so much. Can you give us what's next on your horizons for Missamara and yourself?
Aaron Weller: Sure, yeah, yeah. First, one world rug domination. One rug at a time.
Alex Weller: That's what we always say to everyone.
Aaron Weller: So I mean, really for us, like the, like the next 18 months, US is a really big focus for us. Like we don't want to lose sight with the other markets but. But they're still really important, especially Australia, which is our biggest right now. But we know us for us is going to be huge. We've done tests there where we've just launched there. You're already seeing what we're doing there is really working well. So that's going to take us a while to kind of build up there in the future, past maybe 18 months, we'd be looking at potentially Europe, which is obviously a whole beast in itself. So a lot of different, smaller markets there. Another really important thing to us is continuing to improve our sustainability. So we do a lot already, but we really want to sort of accelerate that even more. So how are we looking at ways and how we can reduce our carbon footprint so whether it's offsetting the carbon that we're already creating or whether it's reducing the use of air freight and things like that. A really big one for us now is like recycled fibers. So we use a lot of pet, pet yarn, which is basically recycled bottles. So we're using a bit of it now. We really want to accelerate. We're trying to develop more and more products across using those recycled fib fibers. And you know, also we do things like recycled leather and a few other things there, but really expanding that range. And then also in the third one inside of that sustainability piece is like reducing non degradable waste. So we're looking at sort of how we can create all. All the waste that we're creating is degradable, especially on the packaging side. Yeah, this is a fair bit of packaging and packaging a rug. We want to see how we can make it degradable, basically. That's awesome.
Nathan Bush: Big guy goals.
Alex Weller: Yeah, big goals, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Cool. And then if anyone wants to reach out and talk to you guys, check out Ms. Amara, what are the best places to go?
Alex Weller: Funny thing is my Instagram was deactivated today. By Instagram. I was gonna say Instagram dms. When I get my account back up, like why is it down me on Instagram?
Nathan Bush: What happened?
Alex Weller: No, they think, they think that I've breached the laws for some reason, but I swear that I haven't. So Instagram if you're listening, like I swear I'm doing the right thing. No, but you can obviously reach out on LinkedIn.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, LinkedIn for me as well.
Alex Weller: LinkedIn messenger or send me an email.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful guys. Love your work. Thank you so much for sharing your story today.
Alex Weller: So fun.
Aaron Weller: Yeah, thank you Nathan.
Alex Weller: Thanks Nathan.
Nathan Bush: There were so many threads in there that I really wanted to pull and explore further. Aaron and Alex were fascinating guests. One thing that stood out for me is that they found a few really low cost techniques that they know that will work for them and they've really made the most of them. The tactic of rewarding customers for sharing photos of rugs in their own home serves so many purposes. It makes their customers their biggest ambassadors. It gives them content to share wider and provides real insight into customers lives that no data mining exercise could really uncover. It's really, really smart. It's a tactic I'd steal if I could.
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