Bernadette Olivier: A lot of our Australian brands fetch more in secondary markets than they retail for. We've had dresses that have been rented 72 times. And I think it has been an error to ignore the power of your product and not to see your product as a marketing channel. I'm Bernadette Olivier and I am the CEO of Seamless and the Vault. And in this episode of Add to Cart, we talk about how retailers can promote the circular economy to drive commercial.
Nathan Bush: What if your customers could buy your product and then earn money from that product after they buy it? What if you could earn money from that same product when your customers sell it again and again and again? That's pretty wild concept, right? That's what we're going to dive into today. My name is Nathan Bush or Bushy, joining you from the land of the terrible people here in Brisbane, Australia. Today I am joined by Bernadette Olivier Sarah, CEO and co founder of the Vault, Australia's leading peer to peer designer rental marketplace. The Vault has built a community of more than 5,000 super lenders. They're women running real micro businesses by monetizing their wardrobes. But what's really interesting now is Seamless, their other product. And it's the infrastructure layer that's connecting retail, rental and resale. And they're already working with brands like Cotton on David Jones, ebay and a growing list of retail partners who are integrating Seamless at checkout. They're using blockchain to help track products post purchase, especially in the fashion space, authenticate items with digital passports and earn royalties every time that an item resells or rents. In this episode, we unpack. And there is so much to unpack here. Why peer to peer rental models work when traditional rental models have struggled a little bit recently. We talk about how resale can become a customer acquisition channel even when you're not getting the sale direct. Why circularity isn't cannibalization, it's actually distribution and how AI and blockchain are actually becoming retail and circularity infrastructure. A big thank you as always to Shopify and Klaviyo for supporting ADD to Cart and helping bring these conversations to the E commerce community. Here's my conversation with Bernadette Olivier from the Vault and Seamless. Bernadette, welcome to Add to Cart.
Bernadette Olivier: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Nathan Bush: Oh, it is great to have you here. I am looking at my questions. I've got a thousand questions for you today because you've got such an interesting business and idea. But first, let's start with the Vault. So The Vault is a rental platform. Tell me how you had the idea for the Vault.
Bernadette Olivier: So I was actually actually a lawyer at a hedge fund in UK and New York when Rent the Runway exploded. Also Airbnb and Uber. And so it was the really rise of this sort of sharing economy. And what I didn't understand, because Rent the Runway actually emerged at the same time, was why that was a B2C model as opposed to peer to peer. Because I always thought the B2C model was going to have limitations in terms of supply and just we all want the same thing at the same time. And, you know, that's even escalated even more now with the rise of like, tiktokers and micro trends and things. And plus, you know, even though I was, you know, a poor lawyer at
Nathan Bush: a hedge fund, no one's ever said that. Come on.
Bernadette Olivier: I know everyone cries about lawyers all the time. I probably just wanted to wear fancier stuff than I could afford. Plus, I'm like, if I buy it, I'd like to be able to earn from it. And so that was really the beginning of the idea. And then when I moved back to Australia, I also saw this exploding cottage industry of dress hire small businesses. And so we now have over 5,000 women building businesses on the Vault. And why that's important is that's really allowed us to deliver a B2C level of service to borrowers, despite being peer to peer, because Pied to Pierre is a difficult beast to steer.
Nathan Bush: So is that the big differentiation from the rent, the one runways and even Glam Corner, who. We've had Dean on the show before, is that yours? More is peer to peer. So enabling people to create their own marketplaces, essentially their own wardrobes to be able to rent out and manage themselves.
Bernadette Olivier: Exactly. So I think Dean is a fantastic Australian founder. The Glen Corner team is really impressive. Ours is just slightly different because the unit economics are different. So when you're a company and you're buying the inventory, the unit economics are far more aggressive. You need it to, like deliver, you know, a 10x return. Whereas if I buy a Zimmerman dress and rent it out as an individual, anytime it rents out, I'm winning because I'm just trying to recruit some of the money I spent.
Nathan Bush: So all of a sudden your wardrobe's an asset. I've heard that before, but I've never believed it.
Bernadette Olivier: Oh, no. I could tell you probably five brands if you bought it. I mean, I'm sure a cocktail dress would look beautiful on you, Nathan.
Nathan Bush: Thank you.
Bernadette Olivier: But if there were five Brands, if you buy those, they will pay themselves off within six months. If you list it on this, give me a hint.
Nathan Bush: Who are those?
Bernadette Olivier: I mean Zimmerman. So Alame, we've got amazing, it's Camilla and Mark. We've got amazing Australian designers and they rent incredibly well. They're made really well. And what I love is that it allows people who are never in the market, most people do not have $1,000 numerous times a year to buy a Zimmerman dress. $600, $500 depending on the price point. But they're able to rent a dress. They're able to learn the difference between a product you buy on Shein and Temu and one of these beautiful products our Australian designers wear. And rather than it cannibalizing retail, it's actually becomes this huge customer acquisition stream. A lot of our users it, because we've been going around, you know, like forever, six years is that someone will rent, say Rebecca Valance. They'll love it. And so then they'll buy workwear or they'll buy favors or something because you know, we also think rental is quite niche. It's an occasion wear well made garments. We don't think people are going to be renting Lululemon. Yeah, we're not for that.
Nathan Bush: So please don't. Let's not get into renting activewear.
Bernadette Olivier: I mean, yeah, a lot of people are like suggesting that's the thing. I think rental, it's a special occasion thing. And I think what's amazing is that I think with the rise of Sheen and Timu, it's never been more important to communicate with consumers that when you buy this Camilla dress you're going to be able to earn from it and also it's going to have value on the resale economy. Whereas if you buy a dress from Sheen or Temu that's disposable and it has no value.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And tell me about some of your sellers. Like you said, some people have made some really great businesses out of this.
Bernadette Olivier: Oh my gosh. There was a time about COVID where we really looked at our data because we were kind of going gret guns and then Covid, that was not great for dress rentals.
Nathan Bush: I could imagine there's not too many events when during COVID was there?
Bernadette Olivier: No, I think it was my first interview with the film review and they said, well, are people dressing up for zooms? I was like, no, no, absolutely not. Like no one is doing that. But we've really had so many of our, we call them super lenders. A lot of Them have been with us since the beginning. They felt really amazing businesses. They are savvy entrepreneurs. Like if a dress they love but it doesn't rent, or maybe it's too delicate because our dresses are utilized so much more than if it's just in my cupboard. As an individual, they are so savvy, they know how to sell. So they're really impressive women. And it's this huge cottage industry. There's also a lot of students. But I think like the, the belief is that everybody who's a super lender is like an influencer when they come from all walks of life. Like we have grandmothers who are making an enormous amount of money. But no, they're really impressive women. And it's something that I'm incredibly proud of to be a part of.
Nathan Bush: And how do you empower them to sell? Like they sound like they're their own marketing machines. How do you empower them to build their own cottage industry storefront?
Bernadette Olivier: Well, it was already sort of existing before the vault. We just saw it and most of them were bricks and mortar and they didn't have a lot of online reach. That's sort of change with the rise of like Instagram and you know, the commoditization of websites. But at the same time, what hasn't changed? It's never been easier to have a website. It's never been harder to get traffic. So we're really a sales channel for them. So just like, you know, we have a lot of small businesses on say Airbnb. They're very similar, but they were our white hot center. We quickly realized they were the most important users that we have on the vault. And we build a lot around what is good for them, what's important to them, how do they scale their business? Because the growth of their business grows us. So I think we've got something like a 90% retention rate of super lenders. And part of that is making sure that we're always trying to deliver them value.
Nathan Bush: And so from your marketing perspective, as you're building out the vault is most of your marketing effort on getting more super lenders into the system. Like how do you manage the supply and demand when you've got a two sided marketplace like you've got?
Bernadette Olivier: Yeah, super lenders were our initially the real way that we got a lot of supplies. Almost 100% of our paid marketing has been for borrowers, has been that demand. But we also have super lender acquisition, but it's definitely more like a B2B kind of sales channel. And now we're lucky enough that we're now getting word of mouth. So super lenders just continue to grow. But we also, we have things that we look for, and if someone's beginning to kind of ramp up their earnings, we then put them in part of our super lender program and things like that. But definitely our paid marketing is predominantly focused on borrowers. I don't want to kind of jump ahead, but the other way we're now getting more and more lenders is through our other business, which is seamless, which. Yeah, I'm not sure we can talk about.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, let's get into it. Like, tell us about Seamless, because it sounds like seamless is kind of the thing empowering everything. Like, it seems to be the rails.
Bernadette Olivier: We really see it as the infrastructure for resale and rental, but predominantly resale, because resale was just so much bigger. Because what we've done is we've really embedded resale in the existing consumer behavior. And why this is important is even though we have these amazing resale platforms like depop and ebay and vinted, only 20% of consumers have ever resold anything. And the main reason for that isn't that they don't trust these platforms. It isn't that it's too expensive. It's because it takes too long. And the other issue that a lot of the resale platforms have is counterfeit ish goods we did was we have captured products and customers before that resale intent exists. So when you're shopping on one of our brand partners, say David Jones, you can save your purchase from checkout and we're beginning to roll out also order history. And you can then list it when you're ready to sell. And you don't have to do anything. So the photo or the attributes, that listing's ready to go. And you can list it on ebay to sell or the vault to lend. And why it's important for retailers is there's been a lot of discussion about supply chains and a lot of work going into that. But I think the biggest black hole for retail is that most retailers don't know what happens to their product post purchase. And what this is really doing is really showing them, well, this is where your product is. This is how it's being interacted with on a secondary market. And in addition, every time that item is rented or resold on ebay or the bulk, the retailer gets a royalty. So they begin to earn from the whole life cycle of that garment. And why that's important is a, like, you know, Ebay is getting something in the sense that that garment is authenticated so they don't have to worry, is this a real Zimmerman dress or a real Alame dress? And then Alame and Zimmerman are being rewarded for making items that are durable, that are beautiful, and that are capable of having more than one owner, which is what we need.
Nathan Bush: Okay, so do they get a cut on the resale and the rental or just the resale every time?
Bernadette Olivier: Every single time that item transacts.
Nathan Bush: And this is only if the seller is bought via Seamless currently. Okay.
Bernadette Olivier: We have, you know, plans for other things. Like we have a digital passport, but I can see that the royalty will live in that. We build it on the blockchain will live in that digital passport. But at the moment, the royalties only exist if you opt into Seamless at one of our brand partners.
Nathan Bush: Okay. So the brand partners go in there and they say, actually, we'll add Seamless into our product page checkout to say that, hey, if you buy this, register your item, it'll always be attached to you so that when you rent it or you resell it, you'll be the authorized owner of this. And we can certify that it's the real deal and that you can make money off it, essentially. But then does the customer also know that the designer will make money off it through that chain as well?
Bernadette Olivier: I don't think it's important to the customer. So the real value proposition for the customer is save your item and in one click, you can list it on ebay shortly. Other platforms, you'll be able to cross list on multiple resale platforms, and when it's sold, it will automatically delist it on the other platforms. So for the customer, it's really about not having to create the listing, not having to create an account, not having to create get a photo, and being able to really easily sell their item. A lot of the things in our roadmap this year is also about triggers. So letting you know, oh, you bought this Camilla dress. There's huge demand for that on ebay right now. So being able to really incentivize people to say, oh, actually, I don't really wear that. And what is actually amazing, a lot of our Australian brands fetch more in secondary markets than they retail for.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It's like, I know my wife does a little bit of getting rid of old items through Facebook groups and things like that, but it doesn't have the authenticity, doesn't have the trust that you've got. I was Interested there that you mentioned blockchain. It was obviously the word of the year probably three or four years ago. I'm interested from a technology perspective, is that still the fundamental of that digital ID or that tracking from the user to the product and then how are you layering AI on top of this?
Bernadette Olivier: So yes, blockchain was. I got really excited when I first saw digital passports because I realized it was already what we built. And so we're really excited about it just because it's going to allow us to know where all of the stuff is. And 80% of retailers footprint is actually in the manufacturing of the things. So being able to make sure the business model and the retailers are being compensated I think is really important. I think also being able to track authenticity. I think with the rise of AI, it's never been more important to have a verified structure of data for products. This is off the topic. I also think for people because the rise of dupes and pretend products and AI slop is just everywhere. I think we've first seen it on social media, but it's going to be quite challenging everywhere. So I think that verified layer of truth is really important. And then I think with the rise of the climate responsibilities as climate reporting in Australia, every item of textiles needs a digital passport next to year. In the EU and the UK and even in the us, despite Trump's best efforts, there's a tsunami of legislation coming through. So I really see the digital passport as a commercial tool, but also a compliance tool. So if you sell your item in California, you'll be able to make sure that you're complying with your end of life responsibilities. If you're selling in the EU or the uk, you're matching that digital passport requirement. And in Australia what's really key for retailers is your scope. 3 emissions can be reduced with circularity data, but it's got to be auditable data, it can't be anecdotal. And so this is a really good way of you being able to present that, which I think in the end is going to hit businesses bottom line. That said, even though I'm an ex lawyer, I think that that's interesting for the compliance regulatory people. What I am really excited about over the last six months is we've really been able to put improve the commerciality of what resale can be and what pushing circularity can be to drive primary sales and commercial outcomes for our retail partners.
Nathan Bush: Does it take a lot for the retail partners to get their head around it? Because on the surface, rental and Resale isn't good for selling new items. But then as you explain it, it's that that trial of the brand, it's being able to have that cut throughout the life cycle of that product. Then also that brand experience through rental will lead to future sales. Is that difficult for a lot of retailers to get their head around?
Bernadette Olivier: I think it has been. I mean, I think we can see now that the biggest threats to retail in this country is Sheen and Temu and cheap manufacturers. What I think that has taken some time to penetrate is by promoting things like resale and through seamless, if you're actually allowing your customers to monetize your item, it's also what gives your item value. If your item has no resale value, if it cannot earn anybody income, it is valueless. We also know from the data now that just because you promote resale, it's not cannibalizing, because most of the people who purchase in the secondary market were never going to purchase from you in the primary market. So there's kind of two ways commercial outcomes that's seamless really pushes. And one that's a bit of like a anecdotal story, but I think it explains it, is my uncle is actually in the Hoodigurrus. So a lot of what we've built is based on music royalties. So that's sort of where the idea originally came from. But I always kind of laugh because the Hoodigurus are really big in Australia and strangely, Brazil. And I was always confused because, you know, even now my uncles, you know, 70, and he said, I just played for a million people in Rio and, like, a little, I love your music, but why? And it turned out that in the 90s, the Brazilian population could get a few counterfeit CDs. And one of them was the Hootie Gurus. And if you think Back to the 90s, getting a counterfeit CD was like, it's theft. It's terrible. There was, like, CD burnings. It was. Or. But now looking back, that was distribution. That was the way all these Brazilians now love the hoodie gurus. Bringing it back to retail is, I do think it's the biggest untapped opportunity because most people fall in love with a product through using it or buying it on the secondary market. And they may never, ever have bought, say, you know, a Vick and woods or H dress. And then they buy it on the secondary market and they love it. And then you all of a sudden, you start getting these ambassadors. And I think it has been an error to ignore the power of your product and not to see your product as a marketing channel.
Nathan Bush: And is that almost an experiential thing? So the audience or the consumers who are renting for an occasion, they're doing it often because they might not be able to afford the off the shelf price or see the value in it, especially if you've got a special occasion coming up. But the idea being that like your hoodoo gurus is that these brands will be able to cash in in 5, 10, 15 years as that consumer goes through their life and can afford the more designer brands and it becomes part of their staple. Is that, is that kind of the mindset?
Bernadette Olivier: Yes. I mean it's even faster than that. We now target everybody who rents an item, who's a brand partner. We target them with them with a voucher to turn them into a primary purchaser and the same on the secondary market. That's something we're rolling out this year. So this is the first time retailers have actually been able to reach these consumers who may need. That's their first interaction with your brand. And so that's turning your product into an acquisition channel.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And how many rentals would you get out of a product?
Bernadette Olivier: I mean we're lucky. In Australia our designers make amazing products. Like they capable of lots of rentals that we've had dresses that have been rented 72 times.
Nathan Bush: Wow.
Bernadette Olivier: But then I think about it like it's kind of odd that we think that that's surprising because you know, vintage clothing, like how often was that worn? And you know, these are beautifully made occasion wear pieces. They're not jeans. Like people aren't, you know, going to the shops. And then I think the other really strong commercial KPI that we've proven in the last six months that I'm so excited about is when our retail partners, and we're about to do a third pilot when they push resale to their existing audience. Some of this isn't publicly, so I'm just not going to name the names they say you're not wearing. Our brand, any items that you're not wearing, we encourage you to resell and we reward you with a voucher. And so what that does is it's pushing some a sustainable outcome because you're keeping more goods in circulation for longer. You're unlocking latent consumer spending. Rather than say afterpay, which is leveraging future earnings, you're actually leveraging latent assets that people sell and then you're incentivizing them to come back and spend that capital with you by purchasing something new. And we've done three pilots now and the results are pretty phenomenal.
Nathan Bush: That's awesome because I know that's one of the big challenges for brands at the moment is new customer acquisition, especially outside of the traditional channels like Meta. And I could imagine from a designer perspective, if you can target that, that segment of customer natively, then that's a really great acquisition channel for them.
Bernadette Olivier: And I think we also say that quite a lot of our brand partners join for the royalties but stay for the data. I think we haven't even fully explored the power of that data for our retailers and our brands because I think as you mentioned, things like Meta and things like that are becoming increasingly challenging, really expensive. I also think we only have, I think the data that they make their assumptions on is really small. So it's the tip of the iceberg. You know, only 20% of transactions in Australia actually happen online and we're kind of using that 20% and saying, extrapolating that for all retail, which I think has been a real error because most people actually want to see things. We're also really unpredictable as people like I might really love like you know, to high heels, but also really love work boots. Like I just don't think we fit into a box like we've been led to believe. But I also think that retailers have really powerful data and as you kind of mentioned with AI, it's always going, that's going to be increasingly an asset they can leverage financially because it's a verified user and it's verified intent. So it's not just this person lives in Sydney this age, you actually going to have the history of their purchases and I think that's really important.
Nathan Bush: Well, it's also a mindset thing, isn't it? When we talk about shifting from demographics to psychographics, it's about wanting access to those customers who value quality, who are going to events and occasions regularly, who want to be seen, who. You know what I mean? Like you're not trying to convince people to buy quality designer wear. That's what their values are anyway.
Bernadette Olivier: No, and I think because of my hedge fund background, I always look at macro trends and the speed at which resale is growing is just kind of undeniable now. So pre loved, I think something like 75% of Americans bought one piece of pre loved clothing last year. It's growing seven times faster than traditional apparel. And so also it's a really rising thing that consumers are deciding when they purchase, like what is the resale Value of this, like, you know, I might wear it to this, that or whatever, does it hold its value? And if you think about the way we purchase things like cars or electronics or furniture, it kind of makes sense that we start applying this to other consumer products.
Nathan Bush: And from a fashion perspective, that's a, that's an amazing stat. From the US, around 75% having purchased. And we've obviously seen the rise of marketplaces like Depop recently. Are you seeing that that is happening? Is it because of economic factors? They're looking for something that's a little bit cheaper? Are they looking for individuality in terms of being able to find something that's expresses them better, or is it an environmental concern? It's obviously going to be a mix of all of them. But are you seeing any one factor driving this growth?
Bernadette Olivier: It's definitely not environmental. That's like a bonus. Everyone's like, oh yeah, and it's sustainable. I think shopping has become less exciting. You know, I think I'm a little older than you, but, you know, there was a scarcity in Australia, particularly like, you know, when I got Doc Martens, my uncle bought them for me from the us. I think those endorphins lasted me a year. It's now been proven that the endorphins were getting from buying new. It's really, it's up and down mainly because I think if I see you in something quite a lot of time, I can just go get it. So there's no this, the hunt isn't there in the same way? And so I think, I think people will always buy new. Like this is the other thing is, I think we've got to stop thinking everything is like a mic. I think people will rent for a black tie event. I think they will buy new and they will also buy pre Loved, I think will be a combination of all of them. I think the rise of pre loved is mainly driven around the fact that you do feel like you've won something when you find like the hidden gem. And people just can't wait to say, oh, I got it on Depop or I found it in a thrift shop. So I think there's the thrill of the hunt, I think there's the love of its unique. Not everybody is going to be in this. And so I think also because of the rise of algorithmic shopping a lot, particularly high street brands, there's a sameness. And so I do think consumers are looking for uniqueness.
Nathan Bush: I think you're absolutely right. There's that story that goes along with it, isn't it? It's either I discovered it, you know, we used to do as I discovered this little shop on this street, blah blah blah blah blah or I discovered it in an op shop. Whatever it is, it's pretty hard to get excited or to say that out loud. If you you found it on Sheen or Teemu, it's like I made this great discovery on Temu.
Bernadette Olivier: It's like and we're actually despite wanting all the stuff, we still want to have meaning. And if you think about, you know, there is a rise of people wanting experiences over products. People still love products and products still mean things to people. And it sometimes it's not necessarily they were the most expensive. It's because I wore that to my 21st or I wore that to my best friend's wedding or that's actually a really funny story about that. So I think pre loved and the rise of thrifting is really giving that meaning back to products. But I don't think that needs to exclude primary retailers because what's hilarious is the products being thrifted are their products. We just need to connect it back to retail.
Nathan Bush: Underwear brand Nala celebrates difference. Different bodies, different different lifestyles, different personalities. That's exactly why they offer more than 80 products across a huge range of sizes, shapes, fabrics and fits. But celebrating difference creates a challenge because you can't talk to everyone the same way and expect it to land. Personalization isn't optional at Nala. It is core to their mission from day one. Nala built their growth engine on Klaviyo. By using rich customer data from their online fit library, purchase history and loyalty program, Nala can segment properly, launch products to the right people and notify high intent customers. The moment something comes back in stock, the results, they speak for themselves. Six consecutive quarters of revenue growth 109 times ROI from Klaviyo and in Q1 last year, 24% of total revenue was attributed to Klaviyo. When your brand celebrates difference, your marketing should too. If you want to turn personalization into a serious growth lever, head to klaviyo.com au and see how brands like Nala are scaling smart. You mentioned before the algorithmic changes that are happening and in your latest substack I saw it was a really good article. You talked about being stuck in CAC purgatory from a vault perspective because it's actually really hard when people are searching for new things. If we just use traditional Google search to say to put forward a rental option. If people are searching for A formal dress for example. Tell me about how you see that changing as AI search and LLM search becoming more of a thing. How will that help rental and resale?
Bernadette Olivier: So I don't think resale has been as affected as rental but rental just globally has proven quite hard to scale. I think that's initially because of the B2C model and its costs around that peer to peer we don't have those costs but it's still been more capital to scale than anticipated. And that's because we have to do so much top of funnel work because I need to trigger person A to type in black tie rental. I need to do so much work top of funnel which is incredible. Incredibly expensive for a startup like us. I mean like if we have more money I welcome more money because we do know what we're how to do it. It's just expensive because if we stop doing that the search volumes for rental dry up. And because of the way Google has done that we haven't been able to. If you just type in Zimmerman rental and I understand the thing, rental isn't purchasing right. It's a service really compared to a product. So I understand why this happened. But it has been a huge challenge for rental. I think LLMs could really change that because people are more and more talking I think particularly in the US and we're a little behind in Australia but I suspect it will move there. People will say to Claude, I'm going to a black tie function, what should I wear? And Claude doesn't work exactly. Like Google will say, well if you're only wearing it once, have you thought about rental? So I actually think some scale for the rental industry as a whole could be unlocked by the rise of AI.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that makes sense. Do you think that will make retailers nervous?
Bernadette Olivier: If it does, it really shouldn't because rental is quite niche. I think that's the other thing is rental is not going to be renting. You know, your casual wear. It is like Mecca being nervous of makeup artists. Like it is not something to be worried about. Everyone should be worried about shooting Tea Mooc, counterfeiting their products and selling them for literally $2. Rental I think should be seen as a way to reach the younger generation, a way of doing that customer acquisition piece. I think it's going to be really powerful. I just know myself of how many brands I've discovered through rental because people are so much more experimental with rental. Like people rent like feathers and sequins and you know something that they probably wouldn't wear normally because you can have
Nathan Bush: a bit of fun.
Bernadette Olivier: Yeah, it's fun. So I don't think brands should be nervous about it. Well, particularly if they work with us on Seamless because then every time someone does buy something or rent something, you're getting the data but you're also getting the royalty. I also think that it would be really powerful for a lot of retailers. We have so many of our users, as I said, whose dresses paid for themselves. And so somebody who used to buy Sheen and Temu might now buy some of our amazing Australian retailers because the uni economics just make more sense.
Nathan Bush: So if I'm a retailer listening to this, I'm like, oh, you know, Seamless sounds great and it's a revenue and also customer channel that we haven't considered before. What are typically the steps, what are the qualifications that you look for in terms of a great retail partner for Seamless?
Bernadette Olivier: In the end it's actually been amazing because we probably initially thought it was going to be more of those higher end designers. But what it's. I can't tell if we didn't know or if it's also shifted. But for instance, Cotton on, the amount of interest and the amount of transactions happening for Cotton on on the secondary market is truly mind blowing. And you know, Vinted, who is a really big European resale platform that just launched in the US they're phenomenal. 90% of their products are what we call fast fashion or high street. And that's because people with fashion still want variety. And so people are buying from Topshop or Zara and they're selling it and the price point is quite low but it's still transaction after transaction and getting those garments worn more and more. So that's been a real learning over the last couple of years is that yes, we have this amazing kind of luxury designer pre loved economy, but there's a lot happening in that high street level. And what is also amazing is the rise of collectibles and what people are collecting. And so there's a lot of people collecting every Camilla Caftan which we knew, but also people really. And I think, you know, I can only speak to say for instance, Cotton on, they do an exceptional job with things like Oasis T shirts. And I'm not a sport person but us sport brands and they sell out and then they sell for more on the secondary market. So I also think that there is this amazing way of leveraging the secondary market and driving scarcity in primary sales to turn it from just a product to a collectible which generates this amazing Consumer interest in the brand. So I think we start with Laboopa, who is an exceptional example of that. But it's actually happening across all categories.
Nathan Bush: That's phenomenal. I love that Cotton on example, isn't it? Because it's about tapping into those almost micro trends that are happening and obviously amplified now through social and the rise of content creators. The ability then to go actually what we're creating will be worth more down the track. But you'll want to stay connected with us from a primary retail perspective to be able to get your hands on it first to open up those opportunities to the secondary market.
Bernadette Olivier: Yeah. And it just drives this site because then when next time you drop it will sell out faster and faster. I have to say I have been, I don't know if Cotton on has been on the podcast, but they are the most phenomenal team. Like we have just loved working with them and we've learned so much from them. They are excellent, like a world class team.
Nathan Bush: Amazing. I love it, I love it. They haven't been on the podcast.
Bernadette Olivier: Oh, we'll get them on there. Michelle.
Nathan Bush: Michelle, we're coming for you. And tell me about from a technical perspective, if we've got retailers going, actually, how would I even put this on my site, for example? Is it intensive? Is it easy? Is it, how do we go about it?
Bernadette Olivier: Yeah, it's zero lift from the retailer's perspective. We get most people up and running within a day. It's all on our end. The only reason that sometimes it takes a day or two is because we have to go back for if you're doing order history, you have to kind of make sure that we know all of your previous catalogs. But it's very low lift. If you're on Shopify, it takes about three minutes.
Nathan Bush: Okay. Yeah. And commercially, is there any cost upfront for your retail partners?
Bernadette Olivier: We've got a tiered subscription these just because we have so much data and for us to kind of house that data to track all these items for the lifespan. So it is a three to five grand per month. But that also means that you get a large amount of digital passports included in that for free.
Nathan Bush: And in that the digital passports give you access to customer data and the ability to contact new customers.
Bernadette Olivier: So yes, we built in voucher functionality. So. So every time someone say buys Cotton on or list Cotton On, I think usually for the lister, the retailer will decide. Okay. For the month of March, anybody who lists a Cotton on item is going to be given a voucher, for instance. But an always on would be anybody who buys that or who rents that garment will get a voucher to become a primary purchaser. And that's all just part of the service.
Nathan Bush: And I guess from a retailer perspective, really nice too, because that's all trackable, too. So in terms of if that's what you're measuring your ROI on, there's no attribution problems.
Bernadette Olivier: Well, I think what's really interesting is that, particularly if you promote okay in March, it might be, you know, David Jones. If you sell a David Jones item through seamless will incentivize you. It hasn't really. It's not like, you know, discounting or that's hitting your margin. And you can actually accurately see, well, this drove $500,000 of sales. So again, becomes another strategy you can use to kind of like free shipping or discounting. And I think in retail, we're all beginning the last few years to really understand that consumers are bloody savvy these days and they're just waiting for what can I do to get the best deal? And whether that's, you know, your honey kind of discounting codes. But people are getting incredibly savvy. So I think having more and more things in your toolkit to drive sales is going to be important.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, absolutely. Now, one of the things that I was most impressed about your latest substack. So I'm a little bit obsessed.
Bernadette Olivier: I feel like I bad it with my substack.
Nathan Bush: I know. Well, I love it. I really enjoyed it. I went deep. You were really clear around. One of the things you're proud of is that you're now profitable. And I'm assuming that's for the vault.
Bernadette Olivier: Yes.
Nathan Bush: And it's not an easy model to be profitable on. We've seen players come and go, obviously not with the exact same model, but around similar spaces. What has been your secret to getting this model to a profitable form?
Bernadette Olivier: We call ourselves Cockroach fat. Just.
Nathan Bush: We just don't go away.
Bernadette Olivier: Look, I think it's been a real challenge, like the biggest challenge by far. We know how to make most things work. I think there's always things in the marketplace you want to improve. The biggest challenge has been marketing. And we got this most amazing head of marketing. She's fractional. Alicia McCall. She runs Ultimate Edge Marketing. She changed marketing for us in so many ways. And a lot of that means that over 50% of our sales come from existing customers. And that has been a game changer. And that's how we were able to get to profitability. In addition, taking a Million dollars of costs out of our business over the last year through AI efficiencies. So you know I am across AI. I have concerns about AI, but from a cost as a business owner, the efficiency gains have been massive.
Nathan Bush: Where did you find the biggest efficiencies using for code?
Bernadette Olivier: Just me personally, I would say I'm 10 times more effective. Yeah, so just the velocity plus you know, I think if we think about the rise of the Internet, anything that could be digitalized, music, you know, content was. I think with AI we should think anything that can be automated should be. So if there is any degree of repetition, automate.
Nathan Bush: So you're Claude, coding your way to efficiency.
Bernadette Olivier: I'm not a coder that well. I'm a hobby coder. Aren't we all now BGI's fat. But I would say the tools in the last few months have become incredibly powerful for non technical people. So I really encourage everybody and I don't want to preach to people. It's just because I'm in this and I feel like not everybody is across it. The free tools and the paid tools are really different. So called cowork has changed my life. Like it's just you can do like give it like can you do a competitor analysis? Can you look at this, look a dashboard, can you do this? And it's all doing that simultaneously, which is just insane. And I also think that busy work that we all have become really accustomed to with updating trackers and you know, tracking the tracker, all of that is gone. But I think also things like customer service, you're able to do automation but you're also able to do personalization at a scale that wasn't possible before.
Nathan Bush: You think you'd enjoy your legal career more now or less?
Bernadette Olivier: I'm not sure there's going to be many lawyers. I'm pretty glad to be out of that. Claude's an excellent lawyer. I'd be a bit worried being a lawyer. I'm sure. I'm hopefully. Don't tell my lawyer friends.
Nathan Bush: No, they won't hear it. Don't worry.
Bernadette Olivier: You're going to need lawyers in the accountability chain, but I don't think we're going to have these pyramids systems.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, yeah, I love it. Expanding into new markets isn't just about selling more, it's about selling smarter. Every region has its own rules, currencies and customer preferences. But with Shopify, global expansion is simple. Localize storefronts, tailor experiences and build trust all from one unified platform. Shopify removes complexity so that you can Focus on growth and deliver tailored shopping experience experiences for every market in store and online. Accept over 100 currencies with Shopify payments for fast familiar checkouts and use built in analytics to identify your most profitable markets. One platform built for global adaptability so you can scale without growing pains. Visit Shopify for enterprise to learn more and start selling worldwide. Question for you've I saw that you've got Kelly Hush on board and Kelly was one of our first podcasts. Actually she would have been in the first.
Bernadette Olivier: She's horrible, isn't she?
Nathan Bush: Horrible. Just doesn't know what she's talking about with fashion. Has no clue about anything to do with fashion. No. Incredible to have someone of Kelly's expertise and stature in working with you. What have you learned from Kelly?
Bernadette Olivier: Oh, mainly dirty jokes and stuff.
Nathan Bush: Worth every penny.
Bernadette Olivier: No, she is just phenomenal. She's really lovely but she's commercial. She's so energetic because you know, I learned quickly well you really need someone who knows about fashion if you're gonna try and work with fashion people. And so I actually researched in Covid and just cold called Kelly and it has been the most amazing relationship. We really kind of yin and yang and our third co founder Genevieve you you saw me yell at before but we just get along and we all are quite different. But no, Kelly is just phenomenal. I think that's how cause you know everything the values that like I'm telling you talking to you about about the facts that seamless promotes commercial outcomes. I was saying that in 2021 and that's just because things take time to build, they take time to scale. But one of the reasons that we've hardly ever lost a retail partner is because Kelly's in depth knowledge of retail means we've been able to deliver value even if the royalties have been relatively long tail we've been able to deliver them value in terms of how we work with them, the data we have and I think that expertise just is so important and I do actually have started calling Kelly like our moat because you know with AI a lot of like you know, we're saying everything that can be automated will be automated. What you can't automate is reputation and experience. You can't spin out an AI version of Kelly. We can try.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, that's right. You're going to try, aren't you?
Bernadette Olivier: But you know, you trust people when especially people you've worked with before.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, incredible. Sounds like you've got all the pieces there and I love that. You know it's six Years, it must feel like forever for you. But gaining real traction and making a huge impact there. What's the next 12 months look like for you and the team? What are your big goals?
Bernadette Olivier: We're really excited to scale here. We're doing multiple platforms, so we were just. With ebay, we're now working with multiple retail platforms and we're really scaling both our retail partners. But we're really finally, because everyone talks in tech about this flywheel, sometimes the flywheel takes such a big shove to get spinning, whereas now our slidewheel is spinning. So we add a retail partner. It brings more consumers. So that's been really exciting because it just did take a little bit of time. But the consumer adoption is skyrocketing and I feel really excited that it is delivering value. Like we kind of see it as a three sided value. So we deliver the value to your ebay because they really need authenticated products. They need more people to go on the supply side. We deliver value to our retail partners and then we're also making it easier for consumers to monetize and earn from their asset. So I think we're in that scale up stage, which is exciting because the startup stage we kind of called last year the year of the grind. And then this is the year of momentum. But I think what is exciting is that some of the things that we've talked about, it's beginning to cross over and retailers are beginning to really understand. And I think also there's an understanding because I think it has been to our detriment. A lot of things that have been in this space have been connecting retail to resell through products and inventory. And that just isn't scalable, which is why you've seen a lot of companies go bust. Whereas we're connecting retail to resale through their consumers and through an existing behavior. So there's not that behavior change. So I'm really excited that that is happening and it just means that we can scale so much faster. And then we are also scaling internationally.
Nathan Bush: Just throw that on the end.
Bernadette Olivier: Yes. You know, I don't want to say it in the next year. I'm like, now we're scaling internationally.
Nathan Bush: Brazil. Brazil, apparently really good market.
Bernadette Olivier: I hear they love the hoodie gurus.
Nathan Bush: Bernadette. I love it. I love the vision and that you've stuck with it for six years and that it is profitable now. The flywheel is going. But what I love most is that you're actually making shopping exciting again. So whether that be that, that discovery that you talked about and Being able to find something that's unique, that has a story, or whether it's about people taking ownership of their wardrobe and actually going, actually, I can get more value out of my investments here. I think it actually becomes, for people who love fashion and love designer wear, is that it becomes exciting again, that it doesn't just become a commodity. So I think that's, that's a brilliant story and I'll be fascinated where you are another six years from now. So thank you for sharing everything. The Vault and Seamless today.
Bernadette Olivier: Oh, I really appreciate it. Loved it. Thanks. Nathan,
Nathan Bush: I'll be honest with you. There is so much going on in the world of circularity resale rental. And we've had a few conversations around in the past. They were always fascinating. And I feel we're going through a bit of a flux at the moment. Post the sustainability peak, I think you would call it, where it's actually tougher to get those messages across as people are looking for bargains and probably reverting to old ways of shopping. There is that risk that all of this falls away. But I was so happy to hear Bernardet's channel journey over six years, but also the growth momentum that they're on, both with the Vault and with Seamless. From both a tech play and a business model perspective, there are three things that I want to pull out for you from this episode that I think you can bring into your own business to have a think about. Number one, have a think about whether your product's job ends at the checkout. Because Bernadette made it pretty clear most retailers don't know what happened happens to their product post purchase. Even if they set up all the Facebook groups and help facilitate some resale, most of the time they actually lose track of that product after that first purchase. But through resale integrations like Seamless, you can actually see where your product is being resold. You can reward resale with vouchers, you can earn royalties on every secondary transaction, and you can even turn your product product into a recurring commercial asset. So that is pretty powerful, especially if you're a designer, a brand or a retailer who is investing in quality products, not cheap and nasty products. If that is you, then this could be a really great secondary revenue model and a way to engage your community and your customers long term. Secondly, I think this helps reposition how we talk about value at point of purchase. Some dresses on the Vault have been rented more than 50 times. And as we heard from Bernadette, some dresses from some brands actually pay for themselves. In six months. When customers know that an item has resale or rental value and there are avenues like the Vault to help them realize that opportunity, they're more likely to trade up in quality to justify that higher price point, to view that purchase as an asset and not necessarily as a cost. This sounds like all kind of information that's going to come back and bite me in my personal life, but it's a story that you need to be telling at that point of purchase to re emphasize the value in the price point rather than pushing towards discounts. And the third thing I picked up is even though it was a bit of a downer around, talking about sustainability isn't a huge selling point anymore. From a business perspective, we need to be really clear whether circularity is compliance or growth. Resale is growing significantly faster than traditional apparel. We're seeing that through all the numbers. It's disjointed, but it's growing. Most customers buying secondary were never going to buy primary at full price. It wasn't an option. Bernadette's pilots showed that resale promotions unlock latent spending, vouchers reactivate lapsed customers, and the whole thing is made measurable. Circularity doesn't always have to sit in sustainability. It can sit in acquisition and retention too. So think about whether you are positioning circularity as a business opportunity right in your business. It's not a tick the box exercise, it's actually a lever for growth. Now if this episode has got you thinking about rental resale, life cycle revenue or turning your product into a marketing channel, that's the kind of company conversations we love happening in the Add to Cart community. Come over and ask your questions about that. I am very, very confident that we have retailers in there who are currently running resale and rental programs. Ask your questions in there, get first hand advice. You can join us over on add to cart.com it's free to join. We'd love to see you in there. Thanks again for spending your time with me. I hope you picked up something that you can take into your business. See you next time on on Add to Cart.
