Martin Newman: And the starting point for me is having what I call a North Star. Because if you can get everyone in the business behind and pointing in the same direction, and if that's about being the most customer centric business in your sector, then you've got a really good chance of making sure you deliver that.
Ash Hudson: My favorite part of the whole show is that first opening, drinks reception, the buzz in the air is unparalleled.
Martin Newman: I've got this 10 new ROIs that I look at, so. So when I go through my framework, I've got a new ROI for pretty much everything.
Nathan Bush: Welcome to a very special bonus episode of Add to Cart, which we call the Explainer. This episode is brought to you by one of our partners who make Add to Cart possible. We're going to dive deep into an E commerce topic and unveil the secret tools that leading Australian retailers use to grow. What if I said to you that by listening to this episode you're going to be able to justify professional development on the Gold coast for four days at the end of this month? Got your attention in this Explainer episode brought to you by the team at Retail Global. We're going to give you a preview of what's coming up at Retail Global, but we're actually going to dive into what it means to be customer centric with one of the keynote speakers at the upcoming conference and that's global customer champion Martin Neumann. Martin is one of the world's leading authorities on customer centricity. He's a force for positive change for consumers and brands with over 40 years of experience. I think he's okay with us saying that he has led the multi channel operations for some of the world's most recognizable brands including Burberry, Harrods and Ted Baker. Following his career in the consumer sector, Martin founded global e commerce and digital consultancy Practicology and has since set up his customer consultancy, aptly named the Customer First Group. Now in this episode we wanted to make sure that we bring you some real value around what it means to be customer centric. So we dive into Martin's definition of customer centricity and why with such a simple concept, many organizations are still getting it wrong. I get his view on how businesses can measure customer focus, get his tips on practical things that businesses can do to change into a customer centric culture and he gives us the examples of the retailers that he holds up and he sees a lot of them as the most customer centric in the world. Joining Martin is Ash Hudson, CEO of Retail Global, good friend of mine and I'm sure you all know Ash already. He gives us the lowdown on what to expect from the upcoming retail fest on the Gold coast, including special keynotes from amazing retailers, including July Lovehoney, lskd. You know some of these names from the podcast already, but many, many more. I love Retail Fest. I go every year and I had the best time last year but. But I actually made a huge screw up this year. We signed up all of the E Suite team to be there. We've even got a massage booth. So keep an eye out for that and get in there early because I think it'll be popular, you know, towards the end when everyone gets comfortable. But after I committed, I realized that I'm going to be in Fiji with the family. Try not to feel too sorry for me. But if you want to get your tickets, visit retailglobal.com and this is the part where I normally tease you with a coupon code if you listen to the whole episode. But let's get out of the way. Here it is. Enter Miami Vice. All one word, Miami Vice. So GC to get $150 off your tickets if you're a retailer. There are also some really good deals on the Retail global site if you're looking for accommodations. So it's all there. Go book yourself a recharge break. All right, let's get into today's bonus explainer episode featuring customer champion Martin Newman and Ash Hudson, CEO of Retail Global. Martin and Ash, welcome to ADD to cart.
Martin Newman: Hey, Nathan, thanks for having us.
Ash Hudson: Hey Nate, how are you, mate?
Nathan Bush: Good, good. Brilliant to have you both here. Most of our listeners will know you both the duo from last year's Retail Global leading the show. How did this come about, this partnership?
Martin Newman: I don't know, I can't remember. Was it an online dating site, Ash?
Ash Hudson: I think it was. Tinder for E Commerce was probably the one we used traditionally. It comes pretty simple, Nath. We talk about community and networking and the importance of it both online offline and through many years of Phil Lay, who sure many listeners will know is the legend that he is amongst the industry. Phil and Martin have had many a year together. Martin used to come out to Australia and keynote quite a bit and obviously draw a great audience in Puny because he is the expert on customer centricity and we connected and haven't looked back. Probably a fair statement, man.
Martin Newman: Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I think that's a fair statement. I couldn't remember there. I thought it was online dating, but you're Absolutely right. It was Mr. Lee, who I've known for many years and. Yes, but delighted to build a relationship with you and Luke over the last couple of years as well.
Nathan Bush: And you're coming back to our shores in just over a month's time.
Martin Newman: I am. I love Australia.
Nathan Bush: What brings you back?
Martin Newman: I love Australia, or Australia, as you guys like to know. Well, I have been. It sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud, but I've now been to Australia 25 times. So my next. So this trip in March, Holy moly. Will be number 26. So I'm very familiar with the market. I love the people. I love the energy. I love the event. I love Retail Fest. I think it's a brilliant event. I wish I had been and come along to it sooner than. Than last year, but there you go, lesson learned. It's a really good event and I do feel very energized when I come to Australia. You know, I like the mindset, like working with Australians and, and I always, I'm always very humbled by the fact that, you know, Australians are always very open to, you know, learning what's going on around the world and what can I share with them that they can take advantage of to, you know, drive their businesses forward? So all things considered, it's just great. It's a great event. I'm really looking forward to it.
Nathan Bush: Is that receptiveness to learning in Australia unique to Australia, or do you find it in other parts of the world?
Martin Newman: It's a great question. I would say you find it generally to some degree, but I think there's a more insatiable appetite in Australia. I guess there's probably a sense of you feeling you're a little bit isolated sometimes. Right. Because you are on the other side of the world from the uk, from the States and where maybe there's a perception that E commerce and retail generally is maybe slightly more evolved, but actually, to be honest, I don't see that much of a difference. I think Australians have done a brilliant job. You know, if they were behind, they've done a brilliant job over the last decade catching up and in some cases surpassing the experience of some of the brands over here. So. But I do find. I do find there's a real insatiable appetite to. To learn and always want to do better. And that's something I certainly share as an individual.
Nathan Bush: Brilliant. And Ash, are you still seeing that, that desire for learning in 2023, where budgets have gotten a bit tighter and retailers are probably more focused on output then development, Are you Still seeing that desire to absorb more.
Ash Hudson: Definitely. I think it's interesting because like Martin was saying, there used to be the old saying that Australia is five years behind the rest of the world, but you look at some of the like, Afterpay is a perfect example. Right. I know Martin's a board member for Clearpay, their UK branch, but it's Australian founder. There's plenty of other brands, even New Zealand. We've got Starship coming out of there. There's some really great tech coming out of Australia and the brands alone. Culture kings now taking over the US, but the appetite for learning 100%. It's funny because we're being told we're coming into a recession. Spending hasn't stopped just yet. I know that it's likely to come, but after the last few years, a lot of retailers have made more money than they could have dreamt of and it's now they've got a taste for it. How do we maintain that lifestyle? And it's not them getting grills and pimped out cars and being ballers everywhere. It's actually like they've got a comfortable living, they've built these businesses, they've got a team around them. And how do I keep this team and how do I keep that revenue coming in to generate that feel? And that's probably the main learnings. We're noticing it where last year it was around post pandemic, how to capitalize it. There's a little bit of loyalty and continuing that growth, but now it's maintaining that database that they grew and that customer base. So it's interesting how we're focusing on those next levels, which is probably one of the key things with Martin and his customer centricity. That they've got the customer now, how
Nathan Bush: do they keep them makes a lot of sense. And I love where you're coming from, Ash. We're obviously talking about retaining the customer. We're going to talk a lot about that today. But also retaining and engaging your team, which is so important in this economy.
Ash Hudson: It definitely is. It's a nice little side business.
Nathan Bush: So, Martin, if you don't mind, can we pick your customer brain around customer?
Martin Newman: You certainly can. The interesting thing with customer centricity is it's become a buzzword in a way, in a way similar to omnichannel and digital transformation, which I find relatively amusing to my mind. Being customer first, putting the customer at the heart of all you do. Being customer centric, that's got to be the most obvious strategy for any business. To guarantee success. And I would argue something we should have always been doing. But I guess if you turn the clock back to prior to the Internet, prior to e Commerce in 1994, you could argue that the retailer held the balance of power. Because as a consumer, you had limited choice. You had the high street, you had maybe some brands with a catalog, you had some brands that had a retail park, a store at a retail park, or maybe in a shopping mall, but it was still relatively limited in terms of choice. And of course, then along came the Internet. And if you have a bad experience now, right, you've got 10,000 choices, you know, four taps of your fingers away on your phone. And so it's driven proliferation of choice. Which means that every single business, no matter what sector they're in, has to really be very clear about what does it mean to be customer centric. And the starting point for me is having what I call a North Star. Because if you've got a North Star where you can get everyone in the business behind and pointing in the same direction and going in the same direction of travel, and if that's about being the most customer centric business in your sector, which is a pretty good, pretty good strategy to adopt, then you've got a really good chance of making sure you deliver that. And I'm sure you're going to ask me in a minute to come on and probably explain in a broader sense what being customer centric means.
Nathan Bush: Well, let's do that. Let's go straight into it. What is your definition of customer centricity?
Martin Newman: I think you should ask that, Nathan. It's interesting because when I do my MBA in a day, which on customer centricity, which I'm doing at Retail Fest, as well as having the privilege of doing a keynote there, and I often start by asking everyone in the room, no matter who I'm talking to, about their definition of customer centricity and do they think the customer experience and customer centricity are the same thing? And of course, customer experience is at the heart of it, because ultimately your customers get through different channels and touch points obviously is key, but there are so many more things than that. So I often start by talking about how does the business treat its people? Because if you don't look after your own colleagues, if you don't treat them well, if you don't pay them well, if you don't give them, you know, if you don't train them and develop them and prove to them that they can have a career there and that there's succession planning in place and empowering them to make decisions for customers, for example, then ultimately the customer isn't going to be, isn't going to be the beneficiary of the level of service that they're probably looking for. So for me, that's the starting point. When I talk about technology, I think that we often get ahead of ourselves with technology when we hear about new solutions and we implement them without really understanding the problem that we're actually trying to solve. And I think if you look at disruptive brands, whether you're talking about Amazon or Uber or Deliveroo or in the banking space, the online banks like Monzo or Starling or Revolut, all these businesses, none of them started with technology. They didn't wake up one day and go, whoa, we've got a great solution. Let's go and work out if there's a problem for it. You know, they clearly understood that the experience that customers wanted to have or probably would like to have or prefer to have was not being delivered at that moment in time, and that they could maybe use technology to do that. I talk about things like diversity and inclusion. You know, if you're not a diverse business and you're not inclusive, you know, if you've got a board of directors and a senior leadership team that don't reflect the customers you're selling to. In other words, they're pale, they're male, and they're stale. I'm not, but they are. Then how can you expect to do the best job that you could of selling to your communities and different cohorts of customers who will be diverse? I think things like purpose and values, you know, the businesses pay lip service to that. You know, you'll often go into a big corporate and you'll see these motivational quotes on the wall, hanging off the wall somewhere in the business. But in reality, they're not things that are being lived and breathed. They're not part of the DNA. And I think that increasingly, particularly younger consumers, Gen Zs, millennials, what a business stands for, their values, do they identify with the values of the organization that they want to buy from? So then you're talking about brands like Patagonia, where they clearly care about the planet, they care about the climate, they're doing something about it. And I think that consumers can see that, and I think that's why they identify them. And I think that these are just some of the elements and the building blocks in my, in my framework. So as you, as you can probably get a sense of already, it's much broader than just the customer experience in itself.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. You actually reminded me then of an old boss that I once had who said we are not customer first. And you could tell Eddie was trying to ruffle a few feathers. We are not customer first, we are team first. If the team are happy, then the customers will be happy. But it sounds like your framework is intertwined. Both those two have to work together in order to make customers happy.
Martin Newman: It's not one or the other hundred percent.
Nathan Bush: So when we talk about customer first and everything that you said makes so much sense, when you come up against CEOs or boards who just don't get it and can't put, you know, going that extra effort for customers into a commercial sense, how do you frame that up for them so they understand the commercial impact that looking after your customers can have?
Martin Newman: One of the things I'm going to share when I do my keynote and when I do my MBA in a day at Retail Fest is I've got this kind of 10 new ROIs that I look at. So when I go through my framework, I've got a new ROI for pretty much everything. So, for example, when we talk about return on investment, most businesses tend to focus. Most CEOs focus, I think, too much on the cost to serve and not on building customer lifetime value. And if you focus on the cost to serve at the expense of building customer lifetime value, you end up making decisions to the detriment of customers. Whether that's cutting the number of workers on the shop floor of your retail outlets so that people end up walking out empty handed because nobody was there to serve them, or whether that's not implementing the right technology or the right solution to deliver the experience that customers are looking for online or across channels. Ultimately, a lot of these decisions end up in losing business. So, for example, if you were thinking about lifetime value, then you'd be thinking about how do I engage and interact more frequently with a customer? So the ROI for that might be return on involvement. How do I involve customers more to start to move the needle from just transacting with them, turning them into a fan? And I believe I don't care what you sell. Whether you sell cough suites, whether you sell earbuds, whether you sell water, whether you sell phones, whether you sell widgets. Cars don't care.
Nathan Bush: Conference tickets.
Martin Newman: Conference tickets.
Ash Hudson: Exactly.
Martin Newman: I don't care what you sell. Every single business can start the process of turning a customer into a fan because it's the behaviors and it's the different levels of service and the focus around building lifetime value, that starts to change that. And that's when you get people feeling differently about you as a business. So they move from just thinking of you as a business that they transact with to something that's got some degree of emotional connection. You know, I talked a minute ago about diversity and inclusion. How about return on inclusion as an roi? How about if you set your business up to be inclusive, to meet the needs of all the different cohorts of customers, be that disabled customers, thinking of your customers from an ethnicity perspective, a sexuality perspective, a gender perspective and so on, you know, how would you communicate and engage more effectively? And you would, right? You would do it better because you would be thinking about it in a way that you've never done before. So that delivers what I call return and inclusion. So you can actually add an ROI to all these things. And when I talk about this and when I bring it to life, I've always got case studies of brands that have done this and done it well to really bring it to life.
Nathan Bush: Brilliant. And I really like what you said before, around having a North Star, around having customers a North Star, but then making it part of your DNA and your culture and your DNA for your team. Have you come across any really great practical tips for making it part of a DNA with a team that might not have been as customer centric as they should have been, Anything practically that you've seen implemented in businesses to kind of shift that tide?
Martin Newman: Well, you have to measure people differently, right? Because I was having that. This is not an example of a business that has done something about it, although I'm hoping they might do off the back of a conversation. But, you know, I was talking to a very well known grocer, let's just say, in the uk, and I was talking to the head of their learning and development about my, I do a mini MBA course with a college in Oxford over here. And we were talking about that and they were saying. And she said to me, you know, who's the course for? And I said, well, it could be any level, literally from a graduate coming into the business or somebody working on the shop floor right the way to the board. And she said, really? I said, yeah, because every single part of your organization can affect your ability to deliver great customer centricity because either they are interfacing directly with customers or they're facilitating others to do that. So I gave her an example and I said, let's imagine your finance team, not the ones that set prices for products, but the ones that Pay the bills for suppliers. Let's imagine they wake up one day, the person that heads that team, and they think, you know what, it's a great idea if we keep the money in our bank a bit longer. So we are now not going to pay suppliers in 45 days. We're now going to pay them in 90 days. Right. Guess what happens? What happens is those suppliers start to deprioritize that grocery business because they don't get paid in the terms of which they used to get paid. That causes them a cash flow issue. So they start to prioritize other retailers on the high street. And then the cause and effect of that is all of a sudden the products or the brands that customers are used to coming to that business to buy are no longer available. So the finance team might think they're doing a good job on behalf of the business by keeping the funds in their bank a little bit longer. But that decision ultimately affects the supply chain, ultimately affects the customer, ultimately affects their performance in the medium term. So it doesn't matter what you're doing, everybody can make a decision that can affect ultimately the customer or those serving customers. And that's why I think you have to measure people by some form of KPI or, you know, that that reflects essentially that North Star and try and get everybody moving in that, that same direction of travel.
Nathan Bush: And I love the continuation of that theme where it's not about the. The just about decisions that are made in front of the customer. It's all the decisions that lead up to the customer.
Martin Newman: Yeah.
Ash Hudson: It's interesting with those points as well as Martin's talking, you can kind of start to piece together some of the pretty good technology that's come into place as well. That example with the money in the bank side of things. I know there's a couple of brands like Refunded, where the customer has to wait three to five days to get their money back on a product of return, but that money instantly comes out of their bank account. So even by implementing something simple like that, it's not going to take a lot for the company. In fact, it's nothing for the company besides a small financial investment. But that will drive loyalty 10 times over every time. So customer centricity. It seems from as I'm learning more and more from yourself, Martin, and from reading both your books, that it can actually be some such simple steps. You don't need to be implementing these giant procedures that take up time from the team.
Martin Newman: Exactly, exactly. And I think the point with it is there are so many different elements. And that's a great one that you brought to life there, Ash. But you know, it's the sum of the parts, right? It's not a silver bullet. There's lots of different things. And what you're talking about there is, if you think about that, if you make a virtue as a business of returning funds to customers almost instantaneously and not keeping a hold of them or somehow stopping customers from getting the refund for a period of time, that changes how a customer can feel about a business as well. That can have a massive impact. You know, if you're keeping a hold of my, my money basically when I, when I need access to my funds to go and make another purchase or whatever it happens to be, then you know that that will affect how somebody views you as a business and whether or not they're going to buy from you in the future. So it's a great example.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And I love that you brought up technology, Ash, because, Martin, I know you were recently at NRF in the States. Has there been any examples that you've seen that have surprised you around how that will enable customer service to go to the next level?
Martin Newman: I think, to be honest, customer service is still, for me, it's not brilliant, if I'm going to be honest. If I look across the board in a general sense, I think it's a fragmented experience. So we're talking about customer service. I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, but you know, customer service for me is contacting the business, right when you've got a problem or something that you need solved basically on your behalf. And I think that, you know, again, often when I'm talking to businesses, I say, I'll give them an example of even something very simple. Why don't you change the name of the function from customer service to customer care? Because customer service in most businesses means that. It means almost making people go away. I mean, I spoke to a very big organization at the end of last week in the UK and they were open and they said, you know, their customer service team is being measured by how many calls they answer in a day. They're not being measured by first time resolution. Right. So from a customer point of view, you could be hanging on half an hour. Eventually somebody answers the call and then you get told, computer says, no, I'm not actually here to solve your problem, I'm just here to kind of push you away. Which is deeply frustrating from a customer perspective. Of course, more often than not, what happens then is Consumers go on to social media and they tweet about it or they go onto Facebook. And I never understand why would a business, no matter what they do, why would anybody be happy with any customers, whether it's 1, 2, 5 or 1000, going on to social media and telling potentially thousands of other customers of how bad an experience they've just had with your brand. So I think we need to be thinking of it as customer care rather than customer service and work out what that, what does that really mean? How do we demonstrate we care? Well, let's start by making sure when somebody does contact us that we have a very high level of first time resolution. And I think we need that. It's not just about the tools, but it's about empowering people to be able to make decisions for customers. So a great example in the UK is a family business called Timson where you get your shoes cut. Sorry, your keys cut and your shoes rehealed. Ash gets his.
Nathan Bush: Better not get your keys, right.
Martin Newman: No, indeed not. Indeed not. Roy didn't slip there. Ash gets his Manolo Blanche reheal when he's in the uk And I think in Europe they probably. There's a brand called Mr. Minute. So you get an idea of the type of business that it is.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Martin Newman: Long story short, every single person in that organization, right, every single person is employed, empowered to make decisions. So the people that are on the front line, whether it's their first day in the business or whether they've been there 10 years, it doesn't matter. They do not have to ask for permission from, from a, from a manager. They can, they can give compensation to customer. If they've had their shoes destroyed, they can compensate up to £500, they can offer discounts, they can change prices, they can create their own promotions. And it's that level of empowerment I think leads to the great experience customers have when they go in there. So again, think of the difference. If you're contacting a business about an issue and that customer care team are empowered to do the right thing and actually resolve an issue for you, it's a very, very different experience and how that manifests itself, obviously, as those customers become loyal versus becoming detractors and telling other people how bad you are.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. It reminded me of a conversation I had last week with the CIO of a retailer here and he was saying how they're switching their customer service to be more of a customer support team. But he said what this enables us to do is to be there for the customer in any form that they want. So what we're finding is that customers actually want to be sold too. They want new solutions, new products, new upsells in the nicest possible way, where it's not just kind of putting out the fires department. It's really. However I can help the customer in any way. It can also be a sales channel.
Martin Newman: Yeah, absolutely.
Nathan Bush: You also touched on there around measurement and I think this is really interesting because we've had a bit of a theme in the first few episodes of 2023 on the podcast, but we've had people like Kelly from Edible Blooms and Erica from the Iconic saying that around mps, lots of discussions around mps, Erica from the Iconic reads all the comments and even responds to some of the most interesting ones. Kelly from Edible Blooms has just gone away from using MPS altogether in favor of getting their customers to contact them kind of expressly if there is anything wrong because they've got a very limited window to fix it. And if it's good, post a review on Google. Because other than that, she doesn't need nps. What are you seeing around nps? Are you still seeing it being a decent measurement of customer sentiment?
Martin Newman: Look, I don't think it's any one KPI or any one thing on its own. Right. I think it's about providing the customer with a voice. So voice of the customer. So that might include yes Net promoter scores. It would include customer satisfaction, but then it would also include running surveys on the website. I mean, when was the last time you were on a website and somebody asked you did you have a good experience? You know, did you find what you were looking for? If not, why not? Was it about lack of a product availability? You didn't have my right size, my right color or the right style I was interested in or whatever it happens to be. Or you didn't have the right payment methods or the right delivery solution. You know, we've got to ask the right questions to get the feedback that we need. So I think there's a combination of all of that. But then also when a customer contacts the customer care team, the customer support team, why they contact them in the first place, what's the problem that people are actually needing solved, that they're having to get in touch with us in the first place. Insight that you can get from that is invaluable, I think, in terms of helping you understand what you need to be doing to fix things that maybe aren't working. And then of course you've got focus groups and you've got something a bit more Qualitative, where you can sit down with people round the table and ask them, you know, how they feel about your business, how they feel about what you're selling, how they feel about this new technology or new solution that you're thinking of implementing. So it's not about nps, it's about a combination of factors that enable you to capture that sentiment and feedback from customers to make better decisions about how you create the experiences they're looking for.
Nathan Bush: Makes total sense. And obviously we've got such a range of channels now, we can't be dictating to customers that they must kind of be filtered through one channel that we want them to use. Ash, you mentioned before our call that you're seeing big changes from your retailers that you're speaking to around interacting via social as well.
Ash Hudson: Yeah, it's a good question. I'd love to hear your perspective, Martin, and yours as well, Nathan, for your scene. I've seen more recently, probably based on the pandemic as well, big user groups coming online that traditionally we're there to teach consumers how to use products like Adorn Cosmetics is a really good example. Bryony gets on there and does a lot of examples herself. She even has a thing where she sits in a bath once a week and talks about her customers. It's quite a funny experience because for her, she describes it as her me time away from the kids. There's also Auspic, the barbecue smoking company, where they encourage people to post on there and share their different recipes and everything like that. I've seen some bad examples as well recently, Martin, where customers would just be ripping the product to shreds. Is it something where you think that should be, you should engage with and try and adjust, or do you think it's a rabbit hole, that they're just going to go too far down?
Martin Newman: Well, I think the part that, you know, the community of any organization or whatever it's selling is a very powerful asset if it's used properly. And I think that you have to accept that if you, if, you know, ultimately if your products are no good, right, then you probably don't have a future. So. And wouldn't you rather learn about that from your customers directly and do something about it? Because, I mean, I remember when, you know, ratings and reviews were first implemented and I remember when I was doing that, when I was head of online at Harrods and Burberry and Ted Baker, you know, I had a real issue convincing the boards of those businesses that we should be implementing that as a solution because they were scared to death about, you know, any negativity. And I said, well, look, there's two ways you can think of this. You can either accept it and do something about it, or it's going to happen anyway. Right. And wouldn't you rather know about it and then be able to address it? And there's lots of evidence of brands over the years that have even had negative reviews on their websites that have. They've still converted better than a business that's had no reviews. So this tendency for people to kind of hide away from that or not be not, you know, try to turn off any kind of form of criticism, I think is definitely the wrong way to go because consumers can see through that. So I think it's harnessing the community. And I think as long as you use that feedback positively to continually improve what you do, you can really take people on the journey with you.
Nathan Bush: I love that now we are, I hate saying it coming out of COVID We're not out of COVID but we're coming out of COVID And obviously the customer and the way we service the customer changed so much during that time. I'd love to do a quick activity with you both, if that's okay, about a few trends that we've seen emerge or behaviors. And I just want to get a quick take from you on whether you think it's something that will stick or something that will flick over the coming, say, year. All right, I've got five for you. We'll start with same day delivery.
Martin Newman: Same day delivery I don't think is going away anytime soon. I think that's just another level of convenience that many consumers are looking for, even in Australia.
Nathan Bush: Do you see much difference between Australia and the UK in that?
Martin Newman: Well, obviously same day delivery in Australia isn't as practical. If you're living in the bush or the boondi, then your chances of getting a same day delivery are probably limited. So I would imagine it's going to be restricted primarily to, you know, major conurbations, major cities and towns around Australia. But from a consumer demand perspective, I certainly think it's not going away.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. What about you, Ash? I know there's a lot of retail global partners in this space.
Ash Hudson: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it comes down to two factors. Right. And they both, both come down to convenience. Where I've. It's, it's a horrible, it's a horrible example to admit, but a couple of times it's been late at night and we've come home after A big day and we've got to feed our dogs. We've got no dog food. I can jump on Uber Eats and get a can of dog food delivered pretty quickly. Right. That's a big example where if you look at the retail side of things, if I'm traveling into, say Sydney or Brisbane, see you, and I'm in office all day, but I need a shirt for that evening and I meant to duck out and get one because I didn't have one ready if I can't get to the store. But I physically need that shirt that evening. That's the game changer. Right. And that's that two to four hour window that's a lot of people offering in the cities, major cities in Australia. So I don't think it's so much now as an expectation as we thought it was going to be. The expectation was you had to get it next day or people wouldn't buy it. Covid and the disruptions when, when that boat went sideways in the Panama Canal, we've learned that things wouldn't be immediate. And then you think of Australia, post warehouses, images of packages everywhere. Sometimes basically the consumer was taught to wait. So now if the convenience, we need it, we have to have it. I think we're now used to the fact that we can get it and that's going to be the biggest factor for me.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And a fantastic customer acquisition tool too. All right, number two, formalized loyalty programs. Do you think they're going to stick around or are they going to kind of flick away?
Martin Newman: Loyalty's got a long way to go. So I definitely don't think loyalty programs are going to go away. I think if anything, you see them accelerate because I think they're just another component of building lifetime value. But loyalty programs on their own as a points or a rewards based program can play a part, but it's not enough. It has to be part of that more broader, holistic approach towards customer centricity across all the different things that I've been talking about and other building blocks. But I think they've also got a long way to go. I don't think there aren't that many, you know, really effective loyalty programs that I see in play at the moment. The ones that are, I mean, there's a brand, there's a lingerie brand in Europe called Hunkamaller and Hunkamaller. They've got, you know, over a thousand stores in the Netherlands and Germany. And not only do their customers get rewarded for purchases, but they get rewarded for posting on Social media, they get rewarded for introducing their friends, they get rewarded for cheating, you know, things. And I think that that's the type of more holistic approach, more engaged approach towards loyalty. You know, again, think of it as in return on involvement that I talked about earlier and ur why? Right. It's a great way you, you get customers involved more in your brand and what you're doing and you reward them for that. Right. Then, then that turns the loyalty program into something much more meaningful.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, great Ash.
Ash Hudson: I'd say it's going to be more skewed towards a service industry side of things because the formalized loyalty won't come from a program in retail. I don't think where you've got a brand you're going to stick to it, you're loyal. Where the service side of things. If I book with hotels.com every travel because every 10 days we get a free night. So there's a little bit something in it for me. But then on the flip side with retail, as margins get tougher and tougher, discounting isn't really the solution. So if it's where you, if you buy X amount of things you can get, you get a discount or Culture Kings is a good example of not doing it. They send text messages occasionally. Hey, we missed you haven't purchased. Check out these. And they kind of go from what we were my previous purchases were. But if it's A here's your 20% off every month, I'm going to wait for that 20% each month and not purchase outside that period. So it's going to be restricting my margin in the long run.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, I like that.
Martin Newman: I would just like to counter that if you don't mind. I don't really agree with that. Well, I do and I don't. I think what I would say is it's not about loyalty programs are not about necessarily just giving a discount. Loyalty programs are about rewarding, you know, loyal customers. So that could be that you get first access, for example to products when they go in sale or you get first access to the latest release of a new whether it's a new game, you know, a new, a new laptop, new fashion, you know, it can mean lots of different things things but it's finding ways to reward customers that do continue to give you business and I think if that's relevant, it can still have a part to play.
Ash Hudson: Yeah, it's a great shout really because you think about any major concert or sporting act or anything coming to Australia, you have to be a tick attack member. To get the pre sale access. Otherwise, with the size of the popularity of things at the moment, you're virtually guaranteed not to get a ticket otherwise. So it's a great point.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And when it comes to discount, where I liked where you were heading as well, Ash, was in terms of not giving the discount out willy nilly. The old days of the catalog and the 30% off store wide I think are going. It's kind of like if you're going to do a discount and you need to go down that path, let's prioritize and personalize it. All right, Number three, the metaverse trend or here to stay.
Martin Newman: In my humble opinion, 100% here to stay. But you know, at the end of the day, it's not really a thing yet, it's really a series. It's a very fragmented metaverse. So I mean, what's the thinking behind it? The thinking behind it is ultimately it's going to be like a parallel universe almost to the physical universe, and we're nowhere near that yet in reality, you know, some brands have embraced it, but the reality is most businesses haven't. And most businesses are not delivering a 3D type experience in a digital world. Right. And ultimately, I think there'll be a convergence of the two. You know, you'll walk into a physical store and you'll be wearing maybe glasses of some description, and those retailers will be using augmented reality and virtual reality to give you access to content and experiences that you don't get without those glasses on walking into a retail store. So I think we're heading down that path. But in reality, we always get ahead of ourselves with technology. We always overestimate the impact of technology in the short term and underestimate its impact on the long term. In other words, it almost always takes it longer to permeate in a way that we think it will. But when we get there, it will be pervasive. And you know, most people will be spending time. Not every single customer, obviously, or consumer or human being, but most of us at some point in time will be interacting with this parallel universe. It's just going to take time to get there. And where you find brands being successful at the moment is where they're targeting innovators and the very, very early adopters. That tends to be somebody that's involved in technology. It tends to be somebody that's a bit younger. Maybe gamers and people that are used to spending time in that type of environment are the ones that are there buying NFTs and interacting with brands. In whatever version of the metaverse those brands are offering at the moment. But as I say, it's quite fragmented and it's got some way to go.
Nathan Bush: Ash, I've given you a tough gig to go after Martin on each of these questions. I might give you the first stab at the next two.
Martin Newman: That's right.
Nathan Bush: Any additional thoughts there?
Ash Hudson: No, Honestly, my answer was going to be Metaverse is still something I've not quite grasped. And 99% of my learnings have been listening to Martin talk where it's going to be there in the future, whether now it's going to be. I see it as like a brand play, like, I think it was the Bermuda Embassy or something. Martin, you talked about where that was. They were the first embassy in the metaverse. It was a kind of like an advertising ploy for them, where it's going to be there in the future, how people adapt it. I think we're still a long way to see how it's going to go.
Nathan Bush: So, Ash, thank you so much for hooking us up with Martin to be able to hear about customers today. It's a nice little sneak preview of what's coming up at Retail Global. So tell us, Retail Global, you're doing it again. How many years is this now?
Ash Hudson: So this will be our 16th year, amazingly so. One of the common misconceptions, I think, about Retail Global over the years was because its foundation as a PISA event, which is the ebay Sellers alliance, where everyone says it's a marketplace show, but I think we've changed that shift. Well and true, the last few years, but as e commerce has grown, so has. And like the argument could be, E Commerce has been 100 years where the bloke had a horse and cart driving around, it was still delivery. Right. But as the modern e commerce has grown from what traditionally was ebay or just a small online store to. To what it is now, so have we. We've really grown that full experience and we're seeing that with the likes of Shopify, Shopify plus Mar Post, BigCommerce having a big play this year, talking around how you can have your online store. But then we've still got the traditional marketplaces there that are going to continue to grow because I think the Australian market is very, very marketplace driven and we're not going to stay away from that. So, yeah, it's 16 years this year and it's really grown on the back of that dream of Phil's that all that time ago.
Nathan Bush: What are you most excited about this year?
Ash Hudson: I'm pretty excited to see Martin come back again. Last year we knew that he was a big deal and it kind of blew us away. That's probably one big point. That opening keynote is going to be incredible.
Martin Newman: I'm excited.
Ash Hudson: My favorite part of the whole show is that first opening drinks reception. The buzz in the air is unparalleled, like just the vibe around that room that you kind of shake a little bit when you hear it. But there's that. And then hopefully by the time this is released, it's not breaking news, but it's. We've also got Cathy Freeman doing a keynote with Adam Linforth from Budgie Smugglers, and they're going to talk about different ways you can incorporate first nations into your strategy and how you can have them involved with your business. Obviously, we know Kathy is an Australian Olympic legend, Aboriginal background. And then we've got Adam, who was actually was originally when he started Budgie Smugglers. I might get the wording wrong here, but he was a youth worker within the community, assisting the youth, first nations youth into how to, I guess, just grow into business and giving them an opportunity. So hearing someone who's lived that and then as someone who's trying their best to incorporate that into their own business, I'm pretty excited for that because we talk about the inclusivity side of things. Before Martin, last year, we had welcome to country talking, and that kind of blew a lot of people's mind that there is a whole market here and opportunity of supporting everyone as one. And although it can be topical at times, we are one country and getting everyone together is going to be the most important thing.
Nathan Bush: I love that. I love that focus. I thought you were going to say you were most excited about E Suite's massage booth, but I don't think we can stack up against Cathy Freeman and Martin. So we'll be there if anyone needs a massage after those discussions. And, Martin, you're delivering your MBA in a Day. I was speaking to a CEO last week who saw you last year and was so excited about attending your MBA in a Day next month. What can people expect from that session?
Martin Newman: Well, I think I'll skip to the end of it, and I think the thing that they will get from it, if they come along, I hope, is they will get a plan of action they can take back to their business. Because what I do is I set the scene. I do a presentation at the beginning of the day and then we have a series of breakouts. And so we have a number depending upon how many People we have in the room, we have each table or team presenting back to the room on a specific subject within customer centricity and what they think they can take back to their own business or, you know, imagining that they were all working together, what would they, what would they prioritize? And so the last session at the end of the day is what I call ruthless prioritization. So what would you, what should you be doing and what are the next five things you should be doing in the next three months? What would you do after that? What would the five things you would do after that be and then what would you do next year? So you know, everything I do, I whilst I like to entertain and engage and educate, you know, at the end of the day for me it's really important. Important there's a practical component that people can take something away and actually do something with. So I believe that anyone that comes along will be able to make a difference to whether it's in their own individual role or whether it's the entire business when it comes to, you know, how effective they are at delivering the experiences that customers are looking for and being that end to end customer centric organization.
Nathan Bush: Brilliant. And I'm sure you've inspired so many of our listeners today if they are keen to hear more from you. I know you've got the podcast, the book and you'll be on our shores next month. What's the best way for them to get in touch and learn more?
Martin Newman: If they come to my website, they come to www.martinnewman.co.uk that's got a fairly good explanation, I would hope, of all the things that I do and whom I do it for. And there's also obviously some video content accessible through there, my showreel and, and other things and me presenting at Retail Fest last year for example. So that'd be a pretty good starting point. And as you mentioned, Consumer Focus, which is my podcast. And then I've got two books, 100 Practical Ways to Improve Customer Experience and also the Power of Customer Experience, that was my most recent book. So I think combination of all those assets you'll get to know, you need to know about me.
Nathan Bush: That should keep people occupied until you get here next month. There we go. Ash has got in his hand. Doesn't leave your hand.
Ash Hudson: I heard Ash, always my bible.
Nathan Bush: Now Ash, if we've got people also listening in going, I'm on the fence here about Retail Fest, I'm thinking about coming along. Where are they going to tip them
Ash Hudson: over the edge definitely get to retailglobal.com you're going to see some of the amazing speakers there. Like I've got the page up right now. We've got our very first line of speakers. We've got Paris Raines who's the founder of Climate Girl. She's been described as the original Greta Thunberg. When she was, when she was younger, she was pitching to the UN about different ways to try and fight climate change and be more sustainable in the, in the world. At the moment we've got Bryony Kennedy, founder and CEO of Adorn Cosmetics. Ethan, I'm going to might mess this one up. Is your friend as well, didaskalu from July, who's the co founder and chief strategy officer.
Martin Newman: Yep.
Ash Hudson: We really wanted him to come on board because if you, if you have a phone and you're on Instagram or Facebook, I guarantee you were spammed the July ads and I was the same. So I actually bought a suitcase and it's changed the way I travel. We've got Bobsy Rob Godwin.
Nathan Bush: He is brilliant on stage. He's a loose unit but a fun unit. That's what we'll tell you everything.
Ash Hudson: That's what we love. And this year we've really shaken it up with a brand new audience. And not to say our previous speakers who are absolute rock stars, didn't do a wonderful job. We're just trying to keep ever changing the game. So we've got Anita Saka from Hero Packaging, Nick Love from My Muscle Chef, Emily Brewster from strand. We've got 90 of the LSKD team coming to share their story because they're kicking some serious goals. Probably my personal favorite, Nesto Valverde from Spotlight. He's going to share his talk around CRM and how you can really start kicking some goals. So I encourage them to get to the website, have a look around, just see that new look and feel that we've got this year. And we talked about discounting isn't always the way but we do want to reward the listeners. So if they put the code Miami Vice in there, they will get $150 off their retailer ticket, aptly named for our Miami Vice friend here. So it's always there for everyone.
Nathan Bush: That's brilliant. I love it. All right, Miami vice in for $150 off and it's on the Gold Coast. I mean if you need to get away from the office for a couple of days, what better place?
Martin Newman: I was just going to say, I mean I present all over the World. And, and I'm not blowing smoke and I'm not saying this just because I'm coming along, but I mean, I think it's a fantastic conference. I think it's just a great combination of brilliant insight. I'm truly humbled now to hear that I'm going to be sharing a stage with the likes of Kathy Freeman and some of the brands that you've talked about. Ash, you know, the social element around it is like second to none. It's an amazing environment. I mean, why would anybody not want to go? It would be a top tip for me on the global circuit for anyone to attend.
Nathan Bush: Beautiful.
Ash Hudson: One of the big things we push as well. Again, back to the inclusivity side of things. It can be a family conference. It is on the Gold Coast. It's a perfect family destination. We partner with Gold Coast Tourism or destination Gold Coasters. They know we've got discounts to all the different theme parks, all the different attractions on the Gold Coast. If there's no reason you can't bring your family to enjoy it while you're at the conference having a great time. We always encourage the people to bring their kids around the exhibition floor in the evenings while we're having the receptions as well. So it's part of that community because as before, we've all got kids. Bushy. You also got young kids as well, where we know how hard it can be sometimes juggling both roles. So being able to see some of the kids running around the floor last year was quite humbling because we know that that was the difference between them being able to get there or not. Because this is the first industry that is breaking down barriers from that old school way where a lot of the people we have, which were the mum starting up with a side hustle, who have now grown so big that they've got their businesses. Speaking of amazing people, we've got Lisa Jones from Shecom who will be sharing different stories and ways that she enables different women with their network not just to have a business but to absolutely thrive because she's a rock star as well.
Nathan Bush: Ash, you and the team always do a brilliant job and I always look forward to Retail Fest or any event that you throw. So no doubt it's going to be another massive couple of days. You've got your work ahead of you for the next 30 ahead of it, but really look forward to seeing you there on the Gold Coast. Martin, thank you so much for sharing everything you did. I feel like we just got the tiniest little teaser of what you're going to be presenting on the Gold coast in a month's time, so thank you for that. Thanks, mate. All right, are you in? Did you need that much convincing to head to the GC for a couple of days to be around the best people in E commerce? Was it that hard? So if you want your tickets, visit retailglobal.com the conference kicks off on the 27th of March. So how head over to retailglobal.com Enter the code MiamiVice all one word to get $150 off your tickets. If you're a retailer, I'd love to see you there, but I'll be poolside in Fiji while my kids are in the kids club. I'll definitely do a better job at aligning my calendars next year. I've got some serious fomo, but I'm going to be alright. So let's recap some of that gold from Martin. Here are my three biggest takeaways. Number one Customer decisions are a chain Often when we think about customer centricity, we think about the customer's experience on site or how easily they can get help or what the delivery experience looks like. All the stuff that happens in front of the customer. But in reality, everyone in a business makes decision decisions in the retail chain that determines what the end customer experience is. Martin's example around how a finance decision can actually impact the customer in massive ways is a great one. We all need to take responsibility for decisions we make that impact the customer. It's not just the front facing customer teams. Number two Happy team, Happy customer. Very close to my heart this one and I loved that Martin mentioned that if you don't look after your team, they won't look after your customers. This extends to everything from how much you pay them to how safe and inclusive they feel. It's the old retail saying if you're not serving the customer, your job is to be serving someone who is. And number three Return on involvement Return. To be a truly customer centric organization you need measures which represent this focus. Sales and even engagement metrics often won't tell you the whole picture. I mean I buy every month from Telstra and sometimes spend over an hour on the phone with my friends there. Would I say they're customer centric. Likewise, loyalty programs can trigger additional sales but doesn't mean that your customers are loyal and they actually even like you. Martin's return on involvement was an interesting metric. What would that look like for your brand? To get the highlights of today's episode head on over to add to cart.com and sign up for our free newsletter each Tuesday. We will send Monday's episode summary links and discount codes for you to go next level on. And if you're looking to explore your next e commerce opportunity, come and Visit us at eSweet. We're a dedicated e commerce talent agency connecting the best e commerce talent with the fastest growing brands in Australia. Head on over to esweettalent.com where you can download the free Ecommerce Salary Guide and sign up to our weekly Ecommerce job emails. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep those customers adding to Cart.
