Adam Lindsay: Cha Ching. And then a few minutes later, Cha Ching and Cha Ching and Cha Ching. We set up a Facebook account and we opened up ads manager. And I remember we looked at it and it was like freaking starship Enterprise. It has to hit this customer win. The customer's got to win first and then as a product of the customer adopting that, the planet wins.
[Voiceover]: Welcome to Add to Cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Every week, Nathan Bush from E Suite and an e commerce industry expert will share the news, research and insights that you need to know to keep you at the top of your game and of course, keep your customers adding to Cart. Hello and welcome to Add to Cart. My name is Nathan Bush, host of Add to Cart and director at e commerce talent agency eSweep. Now I love a good product recommendation from friends and family. When someone starts a sentence by saying, you have to try this product, I'm usually bought in already. Of course I wouldn't expect this to come in the form of home cleaning products. But today's guest bucks the trend. He even convinced me. Adam Lindsay is the co founder of direct to consumer cleaning product company koh. That's K. O h. You've probably seen their ads if you don't already have one of these in your home. Adam was confused by the dozens of chemical cleaners, not to mention all the hardware that goes in them. He was determined to simplify domestic cleaning and create a simple, safe and effective alternative. Almost five years later, CO is now used in 10% of Aussie households and the company is on Track to hit $50 million in revenue this financial year. In our chat, Adam shares his priorities when it came to developing an eco certified product. Why setting up every weekend at the markets for six months was time well spent and how he managed to get get this, a doctor of ionic chemistry to help him for free. Must have been one hell of a sales pitch. And if you listen to this, Adam is one of the best salespeople going around. So thanks to our partners Shopify plus and Signet, here's our conversation with co co founder co co founder Adam Lindsey. Adam, welcome to Add to Cart.
Adam Lindsay: G', day, Nathan. Thanks for having me on the show.
[Voiceover]: Pleasure. You know, we have a first here. You're the first guest I've had that's baking bread at the same time as recording a podcast.
Adam Lindsay: I just did that on purpose. I've never baked a loaf of bread in my life before. No, no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
[Voiceover]: I've seen. I've seen this bread half baked. It's going to be a good loaf of bread.
Adam Lindsay: It's going to be a very good loaf of bread. Spelt as well. Would you have it? And yes, I'm excited to be eating some of that. Later on. I shall send you a slice. Let's see how we go.
[Voiceover]: It doesn't mix with the freshness that you're going for, but I appreciate the thought.
Adam Lindsay: So I've got eight minutes. Nathan, in eight minutes we're going to go and get the loaf of bread out of the thing. So we'll do that, but we'll go with you.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, let's do it. Let's talk E commerce and baked bread. What a show this is turning into. All right, so you are the founder of co. For those who haven't come across co, can you give us an insight into who COE are and what you do?
Adam Lindsay: Yeah, absolutely. So CO is a home cleaning brand. We sort of live and breathe in the E commerce space and if you like, were born in the farmers markets of Sydney, which is where we sort of took our concept and idea from. And then we basically really sort of on a national level launched across social media, namely Facebook and we're five years old. Five years old this year.
[Voiceover]: Beautiful. So start in 2016. Tell us about the growth from farmers markets to where you are today. I've read some figures, but I'm going to leave you to tell the figures of where you are today.
Adam Lindsay: Yeah, for sure. So we basically, I came up with a concept which I'd seen in another country which was for this sort of universal cleaning solution that was being used in a commercial application in Japan and long story, but I managed to get hold of a sample of this stuff. I was at home at this point. I was stay at home, dad, home cleaning duties, cook, basically anything to justify my existence in life. My wife fortunately had a pretty good job and was kind of sustaining the whole family, which she wasn't happy about. But I was on my sort of third entrepreneurial idea and so I was kind of very well versed with cleaning and cooking and all the rest of it because that was part of my, my, my juices. And I got this cleaning product, this solution, started using around the house and just got super addicted to it. And it was. And it's, you know, I think as a, as a parent of a young child at that point I was starting to ask myself questions, you know, around. Hold on. That sort of common cleaning product that I'm using to clean the floors that my 2 year old son is now licking. You know, is that actually, you know, should I have some concerns about that? Give me that bottle. What's actually, you know, and so all these. And I think it's a fairly well trodden path for parents of young children. You start to go, hold on, you know, everything around you, is it going to hurt the child? You know, it's kind of like that sort of natural parent thing. So I became obsessed with this, with this product and basically took it to. I looked up and found a doctor of ionic chemistry at the University of New South Wales. Asked him if there was a version that we could make of this, you know, that I could use safely around the home. And you know, we engaged with a project with the unswe. Only had about $5 left in my bank account so thankfully they didn't require any payment upfront during that, during that process of sort of, you know, this development process, I was fortunate enough to have my, you know, now and still as co founder Justin join me, he also got obsessed around. I think we were the only two people that were obsessed by this product. Everyone else around us was kind of looking at us with the side, I just go, you know, we've got this, they've got water based cleaning products or whatever. And I've heard recently that there was a saying that a startup is a concept or an idea that's held by the founders but nobody else believes and, and that's kind of it. And it's a kind of, can be a bit of a lonely place really where you've got everyone else going that'll never work, you know, what a lot of rubbish. And that's kind of, that's part of the, one of the early challenges I think as a, as a startup, as a founder, you know, is sort of working your way. Is your idea strong enough and is your belief strong enough that you can sort of push on through the naysayers and the non believers, which we did because we knew that we had this solution. It was just an amazing cleaning product. It's kind of just every day just going around cleaning God and just on that.
[Voiceover]: How do you convince, was it a doctor of ionic chemistry? How do you convince a doctor of ionic chemistry to give you time and attention?
Adam Lindsay: Well, he was English, I was English. I guess there might have been that connection. I did buy him a coffee. What I discovered was academics don't get bought very many coffees by random strangers and they've also got a really inquisitive mind. So, you know, the fact that I had this kind of what all intensive purposes look like water. I was going, you know, can you analyze this for me? And could you show me something that we could make that's safe and you know, environmentally friendly? All these sort of things that I have.
[Voiceover]: You were speaking his love language there.
Adam Lindsay: Oh, well, that's right. Cause he was like, oh, you know, academic. And you're right. I mean he should have just told me to get lost really, you know, but he didn't and he took up the challenge and, and you know, I'm very grateful. He's actually a shareholder, you know, in the business. So.
[Voiceover]: So sort of it worked out for him.
Adam Lindsay: I, I think so. Yeah, I think so. And good on him. He deserved it. So, so yes, that was it. So we, we, we sort of spent about six months doing a development, came up with our own formula, tested it everywhere. We got it certified to an environmental standard. And, and we were talking earlier about this. I felt that was really important because in my mind we're going to take this out to general public and tell them that it's not only an effective cleaner, but it's also eco certified or it's eco friendly. The old greenwash statement, eco friendly. What on earth does eco friendly even mean? And you know, I sort of, I do hate because ambiguity in sort of statements around marketing and claims, what's eco friendly mean? So we knew that we had to be eco certified. And I found this not for profit independent organization called GECA, which is the good environmental choice Australia. I would encourage your listeners and viewers to check them out because they basically have standards for everything from paint to sofas. And so if you, you know, if you actually really do want to buy products that are, you know, what they claim to be and that are good for the planet, good for people, then this is a kind of a standard that gets washed against.
[Voiceover]: Online retail is changing rapidly and it might never slow down. So when retail changes, you change retail sell at the speed of change with Shopify plus and grow with demand on demand using a platform that can handle up to 10,000 transactions per minute. For bigger business at startup speed, visit shopify.com au+ that's shopify.com au+ because the future belongs to the fast. And how did you settle on them? Like when you're working out? Because sustainability is core to what you're doing and why you set this business up. I guess there must have been that point at some point where you were like, how much certification do I get? And where do I get certification to make sure people see this as legit Google? I love those answers.
Adam Lindsay: So I literally. I didn't have a clue, you know. Right. So I wasn't. I'd never tried to certify a product. But what I, you know, I knew what I wanted. I wanted an independent body that I could go to. It meets this standard. It just so happened, you know, I found Gecko relatively quickly. It wasn't, it wasn't a hard search. I think, you know, sort of five or six years ago, they were relatively unknown. I think they've become a bit more sort of widely known now and they have, they have their badges on a lot more products. But, you know, for a lot of companies, their products either won't meet it, so. So they don't bother with it or, you know, if they do, it still costs. You know, it's a bit of a process you have to get an auditor through and, you know, all this stuff. So you've, you've got to want it and you've got to, you know, you've got to see the value in it. But for us two dads from Bondi who've got no background in cleaning or eco, anything, I just knew that. Well, why should you believe me? That was my point. Why are you going to believe me? Yeah, why should you? So I haven't bought, I haven't earned any credibility from, from you. So, you know, go and get a certification. So we, there's no, there's no ambiguity.
[Voiceover]: And I loved your point around eco. What does ECO even mean? It's everywhere at the moment. Yeah.
Adam Lindsay: You know, and that eco can be what will print some trees on the packaging and we'll go eco. Yeah.
[Voiceover]: As long as it's got a green label on it, we're sweet.
Adam Lindsay: That's right, that's right. So, you know, it's, it was that. So convince the doctor, we produce the solution. And I think the other part of the success that we've seen with CO was that I knew that if I just provided the solution, then cleaning isn't just the solution. It's not so great that I'm just going to spray it there and I just walk away and it's cleaned everything magically. Cleaning is an action of wiping and, you know, using a chemical. I've even got an acronym which I use, which is watch, which is. So cleaning is a combination of water, abrasion, time, chemical and heat. So one or all of those things. So that's a little clever for you. But I like it very good. So what it wants to do is actually bundle some cloth, some really good performance cloths, the solution and a refillable atomizer. And then I knew that our customers are going to be getting the same experience as we were getting at home when we were doing all this testing. And that was literally why I wanted to do that. And I thought the other thing was, I don't know if I sell the solution to a customer, they might have crappy cloths at home, they might have a crappy sprayer, so why should I impose it upon them? Look, here's the solution. But you got to go out and get yourself the cloths and all the rest. No, I'll do all that for you.
[Voiceover]: You don't want to sell a broken watch, right?
Adam Lindsay: No, no, no, that's right. You know, you don't want to sell a watch without a watch strap. So maybe some people do, but, you know, I just felt that that was, you know, again, sort of laid the foundation of. Part of our DNA is to make this process as easy as possible. People are busy. I was busy, you know, I kind of, you know, with kids and everything going around these days in a modern life, why make me do it, you know, as a customer? I said, no, I'll do this all for you. If I hope to get your buy in on this, I'm going to make this as simple as possible and for you to get the best results possible, you know, because cleaning's a bit of a chore. And going down that aisle in the supermarket, find out, you know, find, find anybody that enjoys that. I don't think anybody does.
[Voiceover]: That's the aisle I avoid normally because it's just right next to the ice cream aisle. So I just skip to the ice cream aisle.
Adam Lindsay: That's like, hey, my bread's ready. I've got to go now. Let's go, let's go have a look at the bread.
[Voiceover]: Well, while you're busy doing bread, I might tell my story. Because when my wife got onto Cove first and I hadn't seen too much, but this big box rocks up and I was like, what is this? And she pulls out what looked like a big thing of cask wine. And I was like, oh, our standards are slipping here. And it's the cleaning solution in a big box. And then she pulls out the mop and I'm like, oh, how does this work? And she shows that you put the detergent on the handle of the mop and then you squirt. So there's no need for a bucket or anything like that. And I can tell you what, our house gets cleaned, by me included, a lot more because it is so simple. Like, obviously the environmentally friendly angle is really appealing to us, but it's the ease of how, oh, that is good looking bread.
Adam Lindsay: Is it?
[Voiceover]: I don't know, like, gee whiz, you are making all of us males look bad. Talking about cleaning, running the entrepreneur life and cooking bread. I don't think I can come back from this.
Adam Lindsay: I've got a lot of shortcomings. I've got to, I've got to earn the keep, you know, I've got to just keep up the good work anyway, so, so, so, so, so, right, so. And I think that's it. That, that was, you know, again, if you can make these things easier and just put your customer central to this, you know, how are you going to engage with this and you know, is what we're going to do better than the incumbent, not just in terms of the performance, but also just the experience and you know, how much effort you have to put into it. And I kind of just thought from the outset, actually, you know, sort of five or six years ago when we were looking at cleaning products and I started to look more and more closely at this God, this is a neglected, stodgy, taken for granted segment that a few large brands are just like dining out on have been for the last 70 years and doing nothing to earn those customers. Do you know what I mean? I know. Like, so when we got to the farmers markets, we took this minimal viable product that we had, the cloths, the refillable atomizer, and we had this three liter pouch that we were filling with the solution. And our hypothesis was, would customers go for eco certified by God? We really wanted to talk about eco certification at that point because we'd spent five grand on the auditors, which was kind of all of our money getting this standard of certification. We really wanted to talk about that. And I remember that the first few markets and we'd have this sort of like demonstration table set out with all different services, marble and stainless steel and glass and all the common surfaces around the home. And we'd sort of cajole and sort of some unsuspecting passerby at the farmers market say, come on, you know, we'd like to show you this and start going on about the eco certification of our products and how that was so important. And you know, invariably their sort of eyes would start to glaze over. What was the most important thing to us? It turns out that we spent five grand on. Was not the most important thing to our customers. And, you know, and what kept happening through this sort of pitch, the early days of our pitch, was they just interrupt us and go, look, that's great and all, but does it work? Yeah. Oh, go. Well, actually, as it happens, it does. You know, and we'd have all these demonstrations and we'd sort of go on. And I think one of the. And we were doing these farmers markets for, you know, twice. Twice a weekend for six months. So we really got to. We got to sort of understand what the motivators were for our customers. And, you know, the. I guess, you know, it was just the best learning process ever. And I think, you know, where we sort of really, I guess one of the big takeaways was, was that we've got to serve the customer's need first. And the whole point of this idea, and I'd sort of, you know, my previous failed entrepreneurial endeavors had been, you know, do something that's great for the planet, do something that's great for people. You know, just make a positive impact. And I wanted to do it on a big scale. Anyway. We went through these sort of first failed efforts and got to the cleaning. I just thought, well, we can really make a huge positive impact here, but we have to get, you know, it's, you know, and I think often with eco products and in the, say, the context of cleaning, should we say, you know, if it's eco, well, you know, you've got to scrub a little harder with this one, and you maybe even probably have to pay a little bit more. But you say, you know, you're going to be saving the planet. And I'm kind of like, well, you know, that probably fits about 1% of the population who are going to be prepared to scrub harder and pay more to achieve a result that, you know, maybe there or thereabouts, I thought, no, this, you know, if we're going to get a product that's. That's really, you know, going to make a difference, it's got to be affordable for the 99% rather than the 1%. It's absolutely got to work. It's got to be equal to or better than the incumbents that we're trying to displace. It's got to be easier and it's got to be simpler and safer. I know those are the things, but it has to hit this customer win. The customer's got to win first. And then as a product of the customer adopting that, the planet wins. I just don't think you can do it the other way around, which is, you know, look everybody. And it's usually this sort of tone, you get the eco tone. It's like, look everybody, we've come up with a product that we really think is going to save the planet and we're asking you to pay a little bit more and scrub twice as hard. Will you do it for the planet? It's like they're not busy.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, you can spray these chemicals in your oven and it'll clean your oven by itself for 30 seconds. Or you can sit there and scrub it eco friendly for eight hours.
Adam Lindsay: That's right, that's right. And it comes back to watch. Right. You know, you just take the tea out of watch the time. I'll do that for the next year.
[Voiceover]: You know, question for you on that though. If you've got this vision, you've got it certified, you've got scientists on board, you've got a vision to make this accessible to everyone. And this is 2016, so it's not that long ago. Right. So we're not talking Internet dark ages. E commerce is still a thing. You could go straight online rather than slog it out twice a week in the markets in person for six months. Why did you go down that route rather than push everything online?
Adam Lindsay: Well, you know what we actually set up, we set up a Shopify instance and it's myself and Justin and we didn't really, you know, we didn't have any, any online e comm shops at all. You know, we'd sort of had our own businesses before and I, you know, my previous one had been, I'd been importing and selling juices and doing videos on YouTube Commerce Store. But I wasn't doing the marketing on it or anything. You know, it was very primitive. And so, you know, we knew that we wanted to do this online. So we'd set up this Shopify instance just around the same time as we started the farmers markets, which was early 2016. And we got like, it was a free template, you know, usual sort of thing. Didn't have any money. So we have the free template, it's all free. Free, whatever was free. You know, we set it, we set up this template on there and what we would do is when we're doing the farmers markets, we'd sort of say to people because we thought, well, we want to become an e commerce business. And so we'd sort of get a customer on at the farmers markets and we'd see them, you know, a few weeks later. We say, hey, don't forget you can reorder online. You know, we had to give them the thing and they go maybe, yeah, okay. You know, but they weren't interested. They wanted to buy from the farmers markets. And we were always trying to get these people didn't know how to do digital marketing. And then, you know, we'd sort of cajole friends as well into hey, look, if you do want to order some from us, you know, like a whole load in the, in the backyard. But if you do and can you just go and order it online? Just, you know, they'd look at us go, well I can if you want. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do want actually, you know, and so we'd have these sort of, you know, we do like about two sales at startup. It's like one or two sales a month, you know, on this thing. And we go, look, we're ecom, we're ecom business, you know, and then, and then as the market sort of progressed, you know, it sort of, it got a little bit and occasionally we get an order and then you'd always go and sort of face stalk them and see who actually it was. Oh, you know, that's that, that's, that's that chap from the farmer's market, isn't it? You know, it wasn't, it wasn't like it was word of mouth. It comes from somewh. And so by the time we got to the end of the farmers markets, we had six months of doing that and we got Scott's end. We've learned everything we're going to get from this. And I am not a lifestyle farmers market career minded person. We want to take this bigger than doing the farmers markets. And so we shot a video at the end, the very last farmers. It was our final, it was our farewell. It was our farewell farmers markets. We shot the pitch that we'd been doing for those six months and we set up a Facebook account and we opened up ads manager. And I remember we looked at it and it was like freaking Starship Enterprise. And it was so complicated how many, you know, was like, God, what do we do here? You know. And we actually had some, got some help from a friend of mine who had a successful Ecom tan fake tan brand. And she was very generous and sort of gave us some pointers and I think after about two or three weeks of us sort of, you know, trying to create the right copy and you know, the audiences and all the rest of it, we woke up. One, one, it Was on a Saturday. And I think most of you will be familiar with the Cha Ching that you get on the app on the shop.
[Voiceover]: Lovely sound.
Adam Lindsay: It's like a dopamine hit. It's the best. It really is. I'm sure anyone that's this, oh, that Cha Ching. And you know, I was used to hearing that, like I say once or twice a week at that stage, you know, and on a Saturday morning we had this ad running. We had like 50 bucks on it. I don't know whatever it was, but it was. It was, you know, a pistons and was Cha Ching. And then a few minutes later, Cha Ching and Cha Ching. Cha Ching. And. And the whole day just kept on happening like that. And it was absolutely this kind of pennies from heaven moment that we got our concept, this idea of a simplified, easy, eco, certified and effective home cleaning system. And that message was going out to people in Perth and Brisbane and all the rest of it. And they were buying in on it. Oh, God, My God.
[Voiceover]: Do you think you would have had that immediate success online if you hadn't just put it in front of people and had real conversations to nail the pitch and understand the audience first?
Adam Lindsay: Great question. I'd say what we would have done, we would have gone off on how amazing is our eco certification. And I'm sure we would have spent whatever money we would have had left on telling everybody about our amazing eco certification. And don't get me wrong, I love Geka and I think it's a really important part of our brand and we've had it ever since. I'm very proud of it that we've got that. But it's not the. It's not the core thing because what do you want it to do? I want to know if it bloody cleans. That's the majority. There will be. There will be. And you know, good on them. But they're a relatively tiny proportion of people that will just go, I don't care if it's saving the planet. I'm going to pay a premium for it and I bloody well I'm going to scrub harder. Those people are great, but they're not enough of a group of people to build a scaling business and make a significant positive change in the planet. That's my view. Because I think you've just got to have a product that benefits the customer first and foremost.
[Voiceover]: Signet helped put the fit into fitness for sustainable workout equipment brand Mobeco. Mobeco sell environmentally friendly cork yoga mats, massages and rollers. But they needed a way to package them up effectively and sustainably. That's when they discovered Signet's craft mailing boxes and shipping cartons. With no minimum order quantity, they're environmentally friendly and 10% cheaper than a comparable product. Mobeco have never been in better shape to help service their customers. Signet have over five and a half thousand packaging solutions that help leading e commerce retailers like Mobeco step up their packaging game. Visit signet.netau to find out more. That's signet. Net au. Your product demonstrations. You still do the product demonstrations or at least the ones that are online are from you personally and they're legendary. Like they remind me of, you know, the old Channel 10 product demonstrations. You just, you just nail it. And after watching them, you can't help but almost buy everything on site. What tips do you have for others who may have either complicated products or new products, new concepts and they're trying to get their product features and benefits across as a sales technique. Are there any kind of sales techniques that you've come across that really help nail that?
Adam Lindsay: I remember one time, and this is when I was importing the juices and I was sort of, you know, this is kind of about two, 2008 or something like that and I had one of these juices and I wanted a shot video from a best mate back in, in the uk And I said, well, I'll do your video because I think I persuaded him to buy one as I'm going to do your video of all the, you know, benefits, why you need this? And so I, you know, I shot the video and again it was on, I think it was an early iPhone, but I shot the video and I was talking to him and my background's enterprise sales in it and everything and I hated it. I actually used to have panic attacks doing presentations to people in suits and all the rest of it because I was just like, I'm not being myself. And that it was just a moment when I was like, I'm talking to my best mate, I'm talking to a friend, you know, and that's just how I look. I'm not polished or, you know, professional, but I'm just like, this is how I'd want to talk to you as I talk to my best mate. And that way it's kind of, I think at least it's just like, well, he's just being himself. And I think, you know, when you're like, okay, now I'm going to show to you this thing and it's just like it's not me. This is not me. You know, and everyone knows that sort of. I think that authenticity is a very important currency, especially online. That's what people want to buy and they're kind of a bit tired and worn out from, you know, hey, I'm an actor and I sell you this, you know, I don't want that anymore. Do we.
[Voiceover]: Do you script your videos or do you just literally speak as to what's coming?
Adam Lindsay: I can't, I can't. Again, I'm not professional enough to sort of read. Yeah, I think it's, you know, an autoscript. So unless there's, unless there's some actual important detail that I have to get right. Sometimes I have a board up. But the demos and stuff, you know, I'll be there with Justin. Justin, Justin still is doing the. My co founder, he'll still do the, you know, he's still holding the iPhone is five years later. And I'm like, right, just what we're going to cover off. We're going to cover. Yeah, okay. And then just we go in and that's thankful for us, like I said. And we were forced into doing. I didn't have any bloody money. And if we had, I'm sure if somebody giving us a million bucks at the farmers markets, I probably would have mistakenly gone, okay, right now we better go and get ourselves a big production outfit because we've got all this, you know, we didn't. Because we didn't have the money. So I had to do it. Let's do it cheaper.
[Voiceover]: Oh, we were only recently speaking with Bryony from Adorn Cosmetics.
Adam Lindsay: Yes.
[Voiceover]: And you know, she's been in the game for a long time, very successful business. But she's still shooting videos on her iPhone from the founder because people want that authenticity and it moves product and
Adam Lindsay: it's also, it's the best way to, it's the best way to communicate, isn't it? I think, you know, it's certainly in that B2C space. I'm, you know, if I'm still doing the threads on the, on Facebook and it's not because I don't want to pay somebody else to do it, but it's just like it's the best way I could, you know, it's a two way conversation as well. Right. And you know, and I think that's an interesting thing about the farmers markets. When we went there, you know, that, that, that, you know, it was the opportunity to listen and engage with customers. It was the opportunity to do the demonstration when customers Hear what they've got to say. And what we saw was that there was this validation that we would have other customers from the previous week would walk past and go, hey, you know, while we're in mid demo, go, hey, you know what? That stuff actually bloody works. Yeah, it does. It was great. So we had this validation, all of those things, engagement demonstration and social validation from the farmers market. We were able, thank God, it's timing as well, because we were clever, but we were able to. To transpose that onto Facebook and do all of those things that we knew were working so well in the farmers markets. And that was a pretty amazing thing. So if we'd been 10 years earlier, what would I have done? I would have had to go to a category buyer at one of the big supermarkets. It was just, look to me, just go get.
[Voiceover]: I can't see you doing that for some reason. I just can't pitch you. There
Adam Lindsay: wouldn't have happened. So. And I think that's the other thing. So I, you know, I think we were very fortunate that we had those platforms, you know, and the technology available to us at that point. And we, you know, it was a good call though, at the time, I think, you know, we've got to do the farmers. Let's just bloody sell something. We can't figure out this E comm thing at the moment because neither of us knew. Let's just go down the farmers markets and start selling products and here and see what people say. Best thing ever we could have done.
[Voiceover]: That's brilliant. And now, five years on from that moment where you turned on your first $50 worth of Facebook ads and you hear the cha ching, cha ching, cha ching. How has social advertising changed for you since then? Are you finding harder, easier?
Adam Lindsay: I think it's become. It's become more expensive. But look, I'm ultimately, I'm a product guy, I think, really, you know, and I love finding products and been doing it all my life is finding something. Not doesn't necessarily have to be mine, but finding something and then just telling other people, you know, friends and family, why this thing that I just found is so cool and is going to change your life and you've got to have one. That's just kind of me in a nutshell, really. So just I've taken that enthusiasm for sharing good stuff, tips, you know, and like, and concepts, and I've been able to sort of morph that into my, into my own business. So I think. So to answer your point, there's heaps of opportunities, you know, Facebook's got a bit more competitive, obviously over the years, you know, so it's not a shock. I think when we started out, I could be correct on this, but I think we were like doing things like paying a dollar fifty and two bucks to acquire a customer. Think back to that. Oh my God. And we didn't realize. Didn't realize. How could we add it? Compare a statement?
[Voiceover]: Can we get it under a dollar?
Adam Lindsay: We're paying two bucks for these across quite a lot. They must be doing all right, Facebook. But the thing is, it was working because we had a great product. So there's a bit of that I think you were sort of talking about. What would you like to see changing in E commerce? I'd love to stop seeing all these marketing people trying to convince founders and startups that they've got the secret sauce to this. No, you don't. You've got to have a good product first. And if you've got a great product and you're approaching your customers and you're solving a problem for them, you know, good marketing obviously helps and having a handle on all of that, I know, there's no doubt about that, but, you know, you're not going to get anywhere with great marketing in a ship product.
[Voiceover]: Yeah, I think the era of we had a. Feels like we had that whole era of D2C brands that you could bring something in, whack a pretty brand on top of it, take a few nice product photos and. And then flog the hell out of it using Facebook and Instagram ads. That ROI stage is over.
Adam Lindsay: That's right. And that's where, you know, the social validation is, you know, becomes a really important, powerful thing for your brand, you know, is what are people saying about it?
[Voiceover]: So speaking of that, you've got 65,000 reviews for CO and the average rating is 4.7 out of 5. Is that right?
Adam Lindsay: Yeah. How do you get them? Any reviews? I gotta say, I actually answered one yesterday. It's lies. Everyone on this thread just saying good things. There's no way that people say, honestly, I've had that so many times over the last five years.
[Voiceover]: Wow.
Adam Lindsay: So kind of take a little bit personal. Well, I'm not a fraud. You know what I mean? And look, let's say it's not. It's a. It's not a product for everyone. And part of the. I can just have this as a little moment to share with you. Part of the problem that we have, I think, is that we've got. We're incredibly lucky. We have loads of people going, oh my God, it's a cleaning process. Oh my God, this stuff is amazing. Like I said, kind of thankful every day that we're so lucky to get that. Then I think what happens is some other people read and see that and their expectation of the product starts to get elevated. And you know, I'm not saying it, it's. Other people are saying it, you know what I mean? And it's, and it's, and it's great. And then they'll get it delivered with this expectation that's so through the roof. It's never going to live up to whatever. You know, they think it's just going to spray it and back to that thing. It's going to spray it and walk away and it's, you know, it's like, well, no cleaning products. And then they'll come back and go, it's not as good as they say, you know, so it's, it does come with a mini millstone, but I'll deal with that for sure. How do we get it? Look, we don't even offer any incentives. I sort of buy quite a few things online myself and I get, you know, I think it's quite smart. You get a, hey, take a photo and we'll give you 20 bucks off. We've never participated in anything like that. It's just we'd send an email out after I think a couple of weeks after they've had it and you know, would you like to review it then? People do. Fantastic. And I think it's just another bit of a weird thing is that with co they weren't looking for it. This is the strange thing, I don't think there's anybody out there that has been saying, you know, saying to themselves, geez, God, just geez, I wish somebody would come up with a all in one fragrance free, fume free effective cleaning solution that's bundled in with some cloth so I don't have to think about any of that and then it's just delivered to my doorstep. Nobody's thinking that. So, you know, consequently, you know, sort of with. We don't go so great on Google because nobody's Googling all in one, you know, but once they've received it and they've delivered it and for the most part they use it and then it's like this. Penny drops go, how awful was the old way? Because the old way I had to go down the supermarket, I had to curate my own cleaning system. I was asked to do that by the, by the brands they didn't help me. They're just trying to flog me a never ending, dizzying, confusing myriad of different products. I'm there as the consumer got to go, is that one going to poison my children? Is that one going to work? Is that one going to work with that one? Oh, I need a, I need a tap chrome cleaner. Do I? Okay, and I need a glass cleaner. I need another. And then I'm on the other side of the, of the aisle. I've got to, I've got to buy some cloths and I need a mop. And you get all that together. And we found this out at the markets. We'd say, how does it feel when you open up that cleaning cupboard underneath the sink? Just tell me how you feel right now. And they didn't variably go, yeah, because that was a system that's been hardwired into everybody for 70 years. You curate your own cleaning system. You do it, you know, making your, the customer. And I was just like, well, it's a great opportunity here, but now we'll do that for you. And you know what? As well, here's the really revolutionary sort of outlandish, crazy thing that we do. We try and do it with as little as possible. So, you know, we're talking about sustainable and environmental. I think, you know, again, a lot of brands are still like, well, we're, you know, environmental, but still trying to sell you as much stuff as we can if we get the opportunity. And we've, you know, have a look how many SKUs we've got. We've got about eight or nine, I think. Nine SKUs, of course it would be, you know, we've been asked by investors, how come you don't sell more different costs. Why don't we sell? I say, well, I don't want to become a marketplace. What value are we adding then? That's Amazon. You think I'm going to compete against Amazon, who have gone, well, you've got 50,000 different cleaning products. You know, go figure it out yourself. I said, no, no, no. Customers know when they come to us, we've got their trust that we are absolutely focused on giving them or selling them as little as possible to do as much as possible in the cleaning around the home. I think that's one of our standout differentiators because we'll keep doing that. And I think that's a pretty significant sustainability focus, is we're going to try and sell as little as possible. And it's kind of contrary for a brand to go. We're going to sell our customers as little as possible.
[Voiceover]: I think we're going to have to stop this podcast because you've actually broken the rules of E commerce by saying
Adam Lindsay: that you're selling as little as possible. I didn't say to as many people as possible now that I do have that, but on an individual basis, once I've got you, I'm going to help you do as much as possible with as little as possible.
[Voiceover]: Oh, I love it. I love it. And I think it's great that you've stuck to that, no matter how big and successful you've got. It would have been tempting at some points, I could imagine, to go wider and go for more. But to that point of validation, I've seen that personally, because obviously you've got the one solution that cleans all different types of services, which is fantastic. But it's the mop that always gets people talking. And it feels like, you know, you show people the mop and there's one button, one thing. There's no bucket of water spilling everywhere. And people are amazed and they're kind of like, there's this pride, I feel, that people go, look what I discovered. I discovered this.
Adam Lindsay: We've had, I swear to you, we've had a good number of, you know, these anecdotes coming from our customers. They go, well, you know what? We had a dinner party the other, you know, over the weekend, and I couldn't help myself but to get the mop out and start doing a demonstration. You know, we're not. We're not mlm. You know, they're not getting anything out of this. But it's just that sheer enthusiasm. Probably people with my similar character traits. You're like, I discovered, you know, you've got to have a look at this, you know, and you know, you know why that's, I think, also why that mop's such a thing. Think. Because it's the worst job in the world, that mop and bucket. You've got that big heavy. Again, hands up, who likes doing mopping, right? Everybody, you know, this. This is how it goes, right? Everybody you got to clean out of the house. The floors have become so disgusting now that I am forced to get the mop and bucket out. And you get this disgusting bucket out and you fill it up with water and instantly goes all gray. Disgusting because the mop tentacles are moldy and filthy. And then what you do is you put some chemical detergent in there and then you've lifted everything off the floors around the house. Got everybody at the house for the next four hours because you're about to turn it into a swimming pool. And then you basically get that filthy gray water and you just spread it all around the whole floor in the deluded thought you're actually cleaning the floors. And then it dries and then it sort of ruins all your floors because you've put so much water on. And then you're like, I'm not doing that again for the next few weeks. That was awful.
[Voiceover]: And your dinner party guests are still sitting there.
Adam Lindsay: That's exactly it. That is exactly it.
[Voiceover]: Oh, amazing. Amazing. We could keep talking, but I know that you've got bread to go and eat and enjoy. I've got one last question, actually for you. Do you still do the cleaning at home?
Adam Lindsay: I absolutely do. Yes, I do.
[Voiceover]: You're not sick of it by the end of the day?
Adam Lindsay: Look, you know, we get some help. We do get some help in, but from like, general. Look, I think, you know, you can have some help, which is the sort of like the deep, bigger clean. But you've still got a. You're still cleaning, cooking. I'm not gonna. I've got a cleaner, so I'm not gonna wipe down those food stuff. So I'm just done after making my loaf of bread. You know, you still gotta clean. So. So my. It's. We share it. So I know you're asking that question. My wife's the. The laundry. I'm not allowed near the laundry. You're not allowed near it, and I'm okay with that. And, you know, I'm sort of surface cleaning and cooking really. And, you know, it goes okay. Mostly good stuff.
[Voiceover]: Now, Adam, what is next? What's got you excited next for yourself and for co.
Adam Lindsay: Okay, so I think we've got to where we are on, you know, let's say on one category. So surface cleaning, really predominantly across one channel, which is Facebook, and in the main. In one geography, which is Australia. And I think, you know that we're going to fulfill our mission. What I'd like to be is a. Is a. I think there are. There are three. Three primary pillars, as I see to home cleaning. There is laundry, there is surface, and there is dish. And also talking about selling you as little as possible. Obviously what I'm currently selling our customers at the moment, which is surface isn't going to help them with their laundry. So that's where we are going to expand to and taking those same attributes, which is super effective. Eco, certified, safe, convenient, easy. Those are the sort of like The North Star of. When we're doing product development and we're sort of very close to doing that. It's super. I get goosebumps.
[Voiceover]: We've got real goosebumps on the screen.
Adam Lindsay: You cannot fake goosebumps. And I was, whenever I sort of talk about goosebumps, so. But I'm really looking forward to that, you know, and again, it's something that our customers. This is part of the thing. When you're on the threads, talking to customers, you get the, you know, when are you gonna, you ever thought about, you know, and the products, take the mop, the grout brush, which is another really popular product of ours. They're all products that we brought out because our customers were asking for them. Yeah. So you know, when I'm doing those threads, I don't sort of the investors, when we spoke, are you still doing the threads? I'm like, would you. Who else would you want to be doing? You know, it's kind of like it's the privilege to be speaking to our customers and they're actually, they give me all the pointers. So of course. Brilliant. Gotta be doing that.
[Voiceover]: Adam, thank you so much for sharing your story. No doubt you have inspired so many people, not only in business, but in cleaning. What's the best way? If people have heard this and gone, jeez, I've got to go check out that CO stuff. What's the best way to do that? Koh.com Koh.com that's exactly right, yeah.
Adam Lindsay: Koh.com and you know, give it a whirl. We might have to do a little pitch. We do offer a 30 day, no quibble money back guarantee. So give it a go and if you like it, then it's a win. And if it's not for you, then we'll give you a full refund and we'll shake your hand and thank you for giving us a go.
[Voiceover]: Ah, there you go. Beautiful. Adam, go enjoy that bread. Thanks for joining us.
Adam Lindsay: Thank you so much, Nathan. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
[Voiceover]: And just for the record, Adam never did send me that piece of bread. Might be for the best. All right, Plenty of, of energy and great stories in there. Here are the three lessons that I took away that could apply to any e commerce business. Number one, the power of being in front of your customers. Adam always intended for CO to be an online brand, but he spent the first six months at farmers markets getting real feedback and it's a good thing he did it because it completely changed their customer proposition. Really great lesson there. Including getting your product in front of real people real quick. Online testing will usually tell you the result, not the why behind it. Number two Tap into expertise. One of the biggest hurdles Adam got over was solved by a doctor of ionic chemistry. He was genuinely interested in sharing his experience and liked coffee. It was that simple. Don't hesitate to reach out to people if you think they can help you. You cross a barrier that you can't get through yourself. No matter how far fetched you think it is. There's so many people who just want to use their expertise to help. Number three, Green is not enough. I know we'd all like to think it is, but it's not. Despite all the green credentials and the best intentions, the majority of customers will not use something if it is harder to use or it is of an inferior quality. Green is important, but it's not enough to finish up. I have three resources for you. Firstly, if you're a first time listener about to cut and you want to stay up to date with new episodes, head over to addtocart.com and you can sign up for our weekly newsletter. We'll let you know every time a new episode drops, as well as giving you my three takeaways from each episode and a link to the transcripts so you can know that this is an episode that you want to dive straight into. Secondly, if you want a weekly roundup of the best e commerce case studies tools and research, sign up to the High Five Friday newsletter which is delivered to inboxes at 8am every Friday morning. I read all the e commerce news and send you the bits that I think you can take action from. Sign up at 12 high 12h I g h.comau forward/high five and the last thing if you are looking to explore your next e commerce opportunity, head over to esweettalent.com we are a dedicated e commerce talent agency connecting the best e commerce talent with the fastest growing brands. Check it out. Sign up to the email and get in touch with me if you want to discuss your next move. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep those customers adding to cart.
