Grant Arnott: Why am I paying six different companies for the same sale? We're at this point where it's like is optimization and automation just goat fucking innovation? Basically. I used to love going on there and dressing up as a yummy mummy. And this will stay between us, won't it?
[Voiceover]: Nathan welcome to ADD to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast that Express delivers all you need to know in the fast moving world of online retail. Here's your host, Bushy. Welcome to ADD to cart, Australia's leading e commerce podcast for e commerce professionals who never stop learning. We bring you insights from the top e commerce operators, founders and experts across Australia to help you drive results and grow your e commerce career. My name is Bushi joining you from the land of the turrible people here in Brisbane, Australia and today my guest is Grant Arnott, Executive Director at Global Marketplace for From launching Power retail back in 2010 when digital retail was still the Wild west, to masterminding Click Frenzy, Australia's original online mega sale event, well before Black Friday became a thing here. Grant has spent more than a decade helping Aussie retailers grow and fight off global giants like Amazon and Shein. Grant is such an icon of the Australian e commerce industry, I doubt that
Nathan Bush: there is anyone listening who doesn't actually know him.
[Voiceover]: I really enjoyed this chat because we got to unpack the why behind what Grant has done over the last decade. We hear how Grant helped create a sense of unity in the Aussie retail industry early on, why he thinks e commerce websites are losing personality. He didn't hold back there. And we also unpack his bold vision for Click Frenzy Live, which is his next take on the evolution of online retail. And he also just gives us a little bit of a shake up in calling out the lack of innovation in Australian retail right now. Now a few reminders before we get into today's episode. If you are heading to Retail Fest on the Gold coast on May 28, make sure you grab a seat at our very first and what I'm sure will be infamous Gold Coast Bogan Trivia Night. It's happening on the Thursday night of Retail Fest at Kurrawa Surf Club just across the road. We promise it's going to be loud, a little bit loose and we have spots available for retailers. It's $20 with all of that money going to thread together to secure your spot and your table. To prove that you are the smartest person at Retail Fest, head over to add to cart.com to get your tickets. And if you're still thinking about Heading to NRF APAC in Singapore. Come and join the Add to CART tour group and experience the best retail innovation in Southeast Asia. We've put together an amazing package where for less than the price of an all access, you can get an all access pass, plus a Singapore store tour, plus special networking events, plus a presentation to take back to your team. All while meeting some great people and having a bit of fun along the way. All the details and registration are live@addtocart.com now. A big thanks as always to our partners at Shopify and Klaviyo for making this episode and our podcast possible. Now let's jump into the good stuff. Here's Grant Arnott, Executive Director at Global Marketplace.
Nathan Bush: Grant, welcome to ADD to cart.
Grant Arnott: Bushi, great to be here. What took you so long to get me on?
[Voiceover]: I'm scared of coming on because of
Nathan Bush: the hangovers you've left me with from the All Star big bashes.
Grant Arnott: Yes, one of our signature moves, put it on a Thursday night early in the year and have everyone dress up. So yeah, can be hard yards the next day. We know that, Matt, you are an
Nathan Bush: incredible force within the e commerce industry and have been for a long time. We're going to cover a lot of the initiatives that you've done. But firstly, I just want to say thank you for everything that you've done. You're someone I've looked up to. Thank you for a long time in E commerce and led the way, especially when there wasn't the huge volume that there is today.
Grant Arnott: Oh, thanks, Nathan. Look, you're not exactly reaching for the stars there. You might want to consider some better idols. But no, I do appreciate that, genuinely. Yeah. Look, this industry's been great for me to step into. I think I started. Well, we started power retail in 2010 and yeah, it was such green fields and nobody knew what they were doing.
Nathan Bush: And does anyone know what they're doing now?
Grant Arnott: They say they do, but yeah, it's still the wild west. I was talking to someone the other day, you know, E Commerce is over 30 years old now and it was with respect to payments and people are still scared to shop online to this day, you know, and it's so mature and yeah, there's just so many changes along the way. It's been such a great pace of growth and change and then we had Covid, which just, you know, took E commerce to a new level. But yeah, reflecting back around that 2010, 2011 era, even before we started click frenzy and the sentiment of the time was that the big international invaders were coming for Australia and we're going to take over and basically wipe out retail in Australia, your Amazons and your Alibabas and so forth, and hasn't happened. You know, this certainly had an impact, but yeah, it was funny, the sentiment at the time and I guess we were somewhat of a benefactor of that, that we're a champion of Australian digital retail growth and set helped drive the agenda for that and got a community together. And that's something. Yeah, we'll be forever proud of.
Nathan Bush: So you should be. And I want to go back to that because there's so much to unpack here around Click Frenzy Power Retail All Star Bash, which you've just had and had some big winners, and I want to go behind the scenes on some of those entries, but take me back, because I heard a story and tell me if this is true, that you
[Voiceover]: were a ski instructor, jet ski instructor in the US and then you were
Nathan Bush: like, I can't keep doing this.
[Voiceover]: And then you got into publishing and now you somehow landed here.
Nathan Bush: Is that true?
Grant Arnott: Not jet skiing. Don't throw that at me.
Nathan Bush: I'm going to make up a whole new history for you.
Grant Arnott: This is water skiing. Water skiing, which requires actual skill as opposed to jet skiing. Sorry, but I am going to offend the jet skiers out there. No, yeah, yeah. Look, I, I, I was a tournament water skier in my 20s. Not good enough to seriously make money out of it. So I was an instructor in the US and it was a great time through my twenties. This is back in the, the 1990s, to give you an insight on my age. And. Yeah. Then realized, you know, Americans were getting a bit crazy. This was around the late 90s when Y2K was a big thing.
Nathan Bush: Oh, yeah.
Grant Arnott: And, you know, people I, I respected and admired were suddenly talking about building bunkers and stockpiling fuel and water because the end of technology was coming with Y2K. And you'd be at dinners or parties and things like that, and they say, what do you think, Grant? What's going to happen? I'm like, nothing. Nothing's going to happen. You're not going to tell me that, you know, the world's going to collapse over two digits. And sure enough, you know, nothing happened. But I think it just taught me at the time that I'm an Aussie. Get me out of here. Frankly, it was, I liked my time in America, but as a place to live and, you know, I do not want to offend Americans and certainly they can come after you pretty hard. So I'll temper this carefully, but yeah, you just got to. I just realized I was an Australian, so I came home and yeah, always had a talent for writing. That was probably one skill that I hadn't put to use in any commercial sense and always had a niche to scratch there to find some way to turn writing into an income. And so, yeah, did that through writing for publishing, writing some travel content initially on Melbourne as a travel destination. That turned into working for a publishing company that had some travel products but also a lot of business magazines. This is when magazines were still a big thing in the 2000s. And yeah, cut my teeth in business media working on writing and editing for articles or for magazines like Marketing Magazine, Franchising Magazine and. And that helped, I suppose that's an experience and skill set I still use to this day and I guess laid the foundations for, you know, being able to create Power retail as a business media enterprise and everything that's spun off
Nathan Bush: of that at that point was Power retail straight up. Was that an E commerce publication or was it just general retail?
Grant Arnott: No, very much focused on digital. So my first involvement in the e commerce industry ever was I'd worked for this publishing company through the 2000s and then 2007. Sort of finished up there thinking, what's next? You know, it was a great business. I was good friends with the owners, but the MD wasn't going anywhere. I'd probably gone as far as I could and thought, you know, maybe I could have a go on my own and set things up and so got out and started consulting as a publishing slash editorial consultant, I guess. And that's got me a few gigs and one of which was also Mark Harvey, who started the original online retailer conference in Australia in 20 2009, asked if I'd help. He and I were connected through Marketing Magazine and asked if I'd help put the agenda together and get speakers together and help with the content basically and went to that conference and that's when the lights went on. Wow, this is a great group, really. Green fields a lot of growth ahead. You'd look at, you know, what was happening in the US and the UK and. And then it was a very small, very fragmented industry in Australia. You had the Leiboviches starting Catch of the Day back then and Kogan and Deals Direct with Paul Greenberg. All these startups emerging adore beauty, these household names in E commerce now Booktopia and you know, you met all these people and they were on the cusp of a fairly special growth curve. And meanwhile the Greater industry was still a little bit behind in terms of. When I say the greater industry, the established retail industry in Australia was still just getting their heads around whether they even needed e commerce. And, you know, this was still when Jerry Harvey was like, it'll never take off and those sorts of things. And so, yeah, we inserted ourselves there really, to focus purely on the digital side. That's obviously morphed over time and the lines are blurred. We don't even talk about e commerce or online retail anymore. Generally we're talking about digital retail. But as we know, it's omnichannel. It's everything. It could be social commerce, it could be escommerce, it could be whatever commerce there is, but it all comes under the same umbrella now.
Nathan Bush: That's it. I've had that debate with a few people and including internally in the team, where they go, is it selling e commerce podcast?
[Voiceover]: And I'm like, well, it's kind of
Nathan Bush: not, but it's everything about. I think, you know, Paul Greenberg used to always talk about new retail.
Grant Arnott: New retail, Yep.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. And that's kind of it, isn't it? It's whatever it evolves into, we want to be at the front line of it.
Grant Arnott: Yep, absolutely.
[Voiceover]: What was the moment where you went, okay, publishing's great.
Nathan Bush: We've got brilliant following within the industry, obviously running the magazine, running the online publication and then doing some benchmarking and reports. That report that you used to remember, it came in the book, the yearly book.
Grant Arnott: Yep.
Nathan Bush: That was amazing. I used to love that. And I wish we still had that.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, we did our basically state of E commerce at the end of every year.
Nathan Bush: I used to buy it for my team. I used to like buy 10 copies and give it to all my team.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, look, that's what we loved about the E commerce. It was all inside the e commerce leaders playbook. And so we had, yeah, the research, we had the top 100, a ton of best practice articles and things like that. Look, over time, just to be honest, the commercials around publishing anything in print, even when I launched it, I was told by quite a few people in the industry, like, what kind of moron is going to publish a book for digital retail or online retailers? But yeah, it was a real hit for quite a long time. Five or six years. Content hasn't had its day, but presenting it in the form of a printed publication now, I think it certainly had its day and I clung to it for as long as I can. That being my background and love. But yeah, I think, you know, around that time, in terms of light bulb moments, we just again saw an industry that was just needing information desperately. And back to when we launched Power Retail, we had a, a significant following straight away and prior to that, you know, hadn't really launched my own vehicle. I'd worked on established publications like Marketing Magazine, Franchising. As I said that, you know, had industry bodies, had various established basically businesses within that and very established business communities and networks and things like that. Whereas we were really helping create it. We weren't the only ones, but we were certainly helping create that with Power Retail. And I found that the things we were writing about were going up the chain very quickly. As you said, you know, and I'm assuming you're talking about when you were with Super Retail Group and you know, businesses like that, businesses like Wesfarmers and Woolworths and others were asking us, you know, what was happening and I'm like, wow, I feel like a bit of a fraud here because you should know this more than me. I'm just a small player with two people on staff. So I'd head over to the US and attend conferences and also that was a great bonding experience with quite a few of the Aussie retailers and people from the industry that would go over. That was, you know, one of the best things I did and really recommend that to anyone. It's money well spent and you know, just to keep on top of things, expand my international network. Just knowing that, you know, a lot of the cues that the Australian retailers were taking were coming directly from what was happening in the US and the uk, but then also China and Japan.
[Voiceover]: Anyone who's had a personal trainer knows that whatever targets you set, they're going to raise them. So when Nutrition Warehouse looked to engage Klaviyo, it wasn't just about sending emails effectively. They tasked them with increasing revenue, driving awareness and building customer lifetime value.
Nathan Bush: That's a spicy set.
[Voiceover]: But Klaviyo were up for the challenge. By creating the right email flows triggered by customer actions, using geotargeting for their 110 stores and using predictive analytics to target high value customers with personalized offers, they proved that they were up to the challenge. Smashed it in fact, with a 47% year on year increase in placed order rate on email flows and a Klaviyo Roi of 50 Times Nutrition Warehouse remain
Nathan Bush: ahead of the pack.
[Voiceover]: To explore how Klaviyo can grow your E commerce business and to see more case studies like this, visit klaviyo.com au
Grant Arnott: and so really trying to stay on Top of the international trends and then bring that back to our audience was a real focus at the time. So. And that's where we, we got the idea for Click Frenzy.
Nathan Bush: Well, I want to unpack that, but that's a great plug. You've kind of given me an undercover plug there for our tour to NRF in Singapore. So we're taking a group over there for the first time. So I love that you say that because it reinforces that and I'm really excited because.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, well, plug for them too. They're a big partner of ours. NRF and so went to the event, it was the first one last year and yeah, definitely tell all your listeners to get over there. I thought it was a really good show, great content and I think there'll be a lot more this year coming.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. So jump on the add to cart bus and let's go have some fun. So tell us then around moving from publisher. Well, you're still a publisher but expanding from publisher to, I don't know, do you call yourself a retailer with Click Frenzy? How do you position it?
Grant Arnott: Good question. Because we still grapple with that to this day. But look, it's an event in the sense that it is an online shopping event. Again, my strength is in, or my background I should say is in media. So I look at it as, yeah, it's been a great marketing machine. So consumers have loved it and retailers have loved it and embraced it and both have won over a long period of time now. So that's what we always set out to do. But yeah, it was certainly began as inspired by Cyber Monday. So again, going back to being over in the US and seeing the impact of Cyber Monday and having the ear of the industry over here was able to come back and ask our audience of retailers, would anyone like to see something like Cyber Monday in Australia? And just had a massive response with yes, we want in. You know, a few that wanted to just say, well, we'll do it but we're going to run it. And it's like, no, no, we got this, thanks. And then also from the media, which was interesting. So business media, so as in, you know, journalists at the age and the AFR that were actually following Power Retail to see, you know, when we broke something new on E commerce because it was a real, you know, hot topic of the time, still is to this day, but had a few journalists reach out saying, hey, when you do this, can we have an exclusive on it? And I was like, wow, that's. Haven't seen that before. This could be big, but we were small. You know, again, probably at this stage, what are we going into 2012? Probably five people. And so thought we'd started as a side project just to get something off the ground that would help the industry. And again, playing, I guess if we had a mission statement at the time, it was certainly too, to help Australian retailers defend against international invaders. Basically, we felt like we were right there with them, you know, providing I guess, the tools and information and resources that they could use to help improve practices for online retail in Australia in order to beat out the international invaders. And I think that's one of the things we're proudest of with Click Frenzy, particularly the early days, was that we're able to put, there was all this talk that Australian e commerce is crap. You know, you'd see all these stories and you'd see all this sentiment from consumers saying, why would we buy from Aussie retailers? They're ripping us off. And when we can get, you know, stuff from asos or wherever delivered at, you know, half the price and it comes in three days. There was a lot of that. So, you know, I think what was great about the first click frenzy and there were a lot of things that went off the rails, but what was great was that we feel it really put the e commerce industry in Australia on the map and put all these retailers on a pedestal. And what it showed overwhelmingly at the time, which was really interesting because we had a couple of internationals that were, you know, part of it. But overwhelmingly Aussie consumers wanted to shop with their favorite retail brands online. I think that was, you know, part of a catalyst for some significant investment into E commerce because everyone went, wow, okay, this is how it could be. You know, we had on that first click frenzy. We'd have some pretty big brands, you know, that participated, contacting us saying we just did two month sales in 24 hours. So we knew we were onto something pretty hot.
Nathan Bush: And I think too, you've got to put the context in there that this is before Black Friday and Cyber Monday was huge here in Australia. Right. You saw it in the us you saw it was coming. But back then we were all hanging out really for Boxing Day being the big sale day.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, bang on. That's right. In 2012, when we launched the first click frenzy, Black Friday didn't exist in the consciousness of Australian consumers. And there was no kickstarter to the shopping season like there is now in November. It was just, hey, you shop. And it's pretty much full price through to Christmas. And then can we go back to those days and go, yeah, I know,
[Voiceover]: what have you done?
Grant Arnott: Black Friday was coming. We just tried to, you know, what we did was we created this stimulus event, you know, around that time of year. But it was never intended to become this amorphous two month discounting frenzy, if you like that it has become. And that's, you know, it's just a product of growth and desperation at some level in competition.
Nathan Bush: But I'm still blaming you because you actually called it frenzy. So it's your fault. Yeah.
Grant Arnott: When you got. We still have corporate Australia ripping us off to this day in terms of taking over our ip, but yes, we deal with.
[Voiceover]: So how do you protect that?
Nathan Bush: Because obviously now Black Friday, Cyber Monday is part of the consciousness, it's part of the cycle. How do you keep Click Frenzy relevant and find space where you can make that noise for retailers?
Grant Arnott: Yeah, look, I won't lie, it gets harder. It's a very crowded calendar. Yeah, we certainly had it our own way for a long time, but I think for us it's not so much about big and massive anymore, it's about niche and targeting and getting you connected with the right customers. So that's getting more sophisticated. We've had real success in the last six months with launching some niche events with, you know, relatively small, small range of brands that have done really well in different categories like beauty and health. We did one in sport, we've got one coming up in tech. Travel's been a good category for us in that regard. So you don't need to be a major. What we're learning is whilst our, what we call our Netbuster events, which are still our mayhem event coming up soon and also our, the main event in November, which is still just runs a couple of weeks ahead of Black Friday, are still far and away our biggest drivers of E commerce growth for retailers. But these niche events that we're putting on throughout the rest of the year are really helping support the retail moments at the right time, with the right audience and I guess the right grouping of brands. You know, I guess success for us has always come down to the right assortment of brands doing, you know, really exceptional offers and connecting those with our audience. But instead of two massive moments a year, we're looking at two pretty big moments a year, but dotted with maybe 10 other significant moments as well, just broadly.
Nathan Bush: And I could imagine after all this time you've got a pretty significant customer database there that you've got some good behavioral and purchasing insights on to be able to create those Niche events to ensure engagement at the right time.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, that's what we're trying to do. And we're always trying to expand that, you know, behavioral. Yes. With our model, the purchasing piece, we're not a marketplace, so it's one of the pros and cons, I guess is the pro for retailers is we will get the traffic onto your site as opposed to a marketplace like an Amazon or an ebay. Owning the customer and owning the transaction, owning the customer support and the service and things like that. We're more about, okay, we'll publish a great offer via Click Frenzy and we'll send the qualified shoppers directly to your website versus, you know, trying to own the customer end to end. So when I say it's, it's got pros and cons. We'd probably have a lot more data and sophistication if we owned every piece of the journey.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Grant Arnott: But also, you know, we feel strongly that retailers want to get customers onto their platform and we want to help. We're an enabler of that first and foremost.
Nathan Bush: And you want to enjoy life as well.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, yeah. We've doubled in marketplaces. We have one in New Zealand. And yeah, as anyone who's got a marketplace or operates a marketplace would know, it's hard work and it's hard to. You need a huge amount of scale to make it really successful. In New Zealand we've got that, we've got one of the bigger marketplaces in New Zealand. But it's hard work. It's the compliance headaches, the third party merchant challenges never ending.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, for sure. I should know this, but the commercial model for Click Frenzy, is it advertising slash marketing, pay to be seen model, or is there an affiliate model behind it as well?
Grant Arnott: Primarily advertising and marketing. Again, that's my bread and butter. And I've always felt there's quite a distinct difference between our job, which we feel is to push qualified customers to the door and then once they get to your door and get inside your online store, it's over to you to convert them. I think we've always found it challenging when it moves to a purely a conversion model where it's like, well, hang on, we can't account for how much you might stuff up that customer on your site. And so we think the fairest model for us is, and for both parties is to say, look, we know what we'll do, we'll send the customers your way and there's a fee for that. And once they get on your site, it's your job to sort out conversion.
Nathan Bush: And I like that model for this because you mentioned there before some of the other marketplaces who are trying to keep people within the site. But for most e commerce retailers today, one of the biggest struggles is a huge chunk of their marketing budget goes towards performance marketing on social channels. And obviously their job is to keep people within the channel. And even Google now being able to give you all the information within Google rather than send people to the website there is actually it's really hard to get traffic acquisition now.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, that's exactly right. And so we really haven't deviated from that. And we get asked by retailers all the time, can you adapt to our needs, which often is to move to that conversion rate model. And we'll consider it in certain cases. But mostly we feel pretty strongly that the job of conversion is in other words, like if you were an advertising platform first and foremost, if you put a TV ad on Channel 9, Channel 9 is not getting remunerated on the basis of how many sales you make on your website. So it's a similar model in that regard. And we think that it's also. I'm going to potentially offend a few affiliates but attribution becomes a big issue. Who got that sale? How many browser widgets were popping up along the way to take their clip of the ticket through that process? And we're very much take that, we're at the top of the funnel. We'll create the buzz, we'll get the customers inbound towards you and get them onto your site. After that it's, it's up to you job to deliver the good experience and do everything from there.
Nathan Bush: Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Because what you do is you initiate basically opening the wallets. You know, it's like we're on, we're ready to go. So in the minds of customers it's like, all right, spending season, we're happening and then you support it with your emails and your marketing and stuff around the specific retailers. But you also do the job for the industry around just telling customers that now it's deal season. Wherever you normally shop, go and get your deal.
Grant Arnott: No, definitely, yeah. Look, there's no shortage of freeloaders that are the buzz that clickfrend creates. And again that's legitimately one of our strategic challenges is always making sure that we've got more value for our retailers that participate. And yeah, we think we do a good job of that. But that is, that is honestly been the biggest work in progress, particularly over the last five years of just, you know, demonstrating the value that we create because we know we do exactly what you said. We know we are the source of the drive. Like, we, I don't know, let the horses out of the gate and that's us. And then. Yeah. Who gets credit at the finish line? Is. Is it the jockey, is it the horse? Or is something that. It's just really hard to control? Yeah, yeah. You know, you're in the industry, Nathan, and you know, that attribution piece is just. Everyone I talk to. It's a real challenge. Like, why am I paying six different companies for the same sale?
Nathan Bush: No one solved it. Everyone keeps talking about it. They have since day Dot. Right.
Grant Arnott: Yeah. I don't know that it can be solved easily because, you know, everything has to be wound back, basically. And meanwhile, there's a clear imperative for constant sales volumes that can't turn the tap off and say, okay, let's just see how this goes for a while. So it's a. It's a real catch 22 at the moment.
Nathan Bush: Do you feel generally that you get fairly attributed to sales from retailers?
Grant Arnott: No comment. I better stay away from that one.
Nathan Bush: You said nothing was off limits, but I understand that. I get it. You just had the All Star Bash a couple of weeks ago. Big W took out the big prize for the night, which I will admit that was surprising. Me and I went onto the website and had a look around and it had approved a lot. It was like. It was actually a really nice experience. And obviously I don't get to see all the rationale behind the scenes on how those awards get handed out. What did you see coming through this year? Was there anything that surprised you or are you like, we actually haven't done that much in the last 10 years.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, a couple of things, I suppose, with respect to Big W. So what we've done the last two years is we had been quietly building up a whole lot of NPS data. So with the two businesses that we have under the one roof is we've got Power Retail, which runs the All Star Bash, and then we've got Click Frenzy with the huge consumer database that's been highly active and also, you know, great source of some of the data that goes into the rankings for Power Retail because of so many active online shoppers within that. And so we started getting NPS scores for our top 100 retailers, and that's played. And then also we started Mystery Shopping as well. So we did a mystery shopping exercise across all of them because we felt, look, for quite a few years of the All Star Bash, there's a whole. And it's better that our head of data explains it and I'll handball it to him because I don't know all the details honestly of the algorithm that goes into it, but it's basically 22 different variables that we use for the rankings. And then each year we have a discussion after the All Star Bash, should we review any of the weightings and things like that? In the last few years, we've done a deliberate exercise to upweight the customer view and the customer experience as well, versus just okay, well, you are the biggest volume or you have the most traffic and therefore pretty hard to compete with a Bunnings or a Woolies or at that level. So very hard to get past the top one. So that's where Big W crept up and took a few by surprise. And yeah, certainly raises a few eyebrows. But yeah, you do look at the work that's put in. I think they've got a really good team and particularly in the last 12 months, I just thought it was pretty deserving. And as you said, you went onto the site and saw, oh yeah, it's fast improved, I think they have, but also their actual consumer experience. And then the voice of what the customers are saying about Big W was, was compelling. So that's where they come in. And then I guess the other part of it is, yeah, we judge. There's a component of the awards that are purely based on our rankings system and that just bubbles along analyzing, you know, 250 retailers a year to get to a top 100 and then obviously to get down to a number one in each category. But then we have our judged awards where we had a record number of submissions this year and I was part of the judging panel and particularly on the customer experience in UX categories, just reviewing, I think over 100 websites for, prior to the short listing that all look the same.
Nathan Bush: Yeah.
Grant Arnott: And I think, you know, we're at this point where it's like, is optimization and automation just goat innovations basically? And have we, you know, lost touch with how to break out, how to do things differently, how to, you know, inspire customers? And there's definitely a commercial component that says you must be best practice and you must have the best optimized site and you don't want to mess with a winning formula in terms of the tried and tested template that works. Your taxonomy's got to be. Your checkout needs to be this way because all the testing over, as I said earlier, 30 years now. Indicates this will give you best chance for success. But what's missing is just the inspiration, the content and I know that can be hard and I know lots of retailers are going, yeah, we need that. Okay, well let's AI do it for us. But yeah, I think that if you go back to some of the pioneers of E commerce growth, that many of them have cashed up and sitting flat now so they're not interested in innovating anymore. But you look at pioneers like the Catch model, like what Kogan did, even back to Deals Direct and others. I'm just wondering when the next wave of that is is going to come through and it's not. I just worry that there's so much tech doing the job for us and all you get there is templated cookie cutter stuff that we're needing those real visionary pioneers to come back in and shake things up.
Nathan Bush: So if I'm putting words in your mouth, are you saying that in the past there was no templates? Right. You essentially most of the platforms were custom built or they were magento, which was back then, wasn't the Magento it is today. It was open source magento or whatever it was. You actually had to build the thing yourself. So there were no boundaries, no guardrails. You built what you think would work for your brand. Whereas today Shopify own the market. There's templates built in, there's a checkout built in, there's a way of doing retail on the Shopify platform. Do you think that is hindering innovation?
Grant Arnott: Yeah, I do. And that's, you know, natural evolution where maybe all the innovation in the front end is largely done and it is a very commoditized thing and. But I guess what I'm talking about is if I look at, you know, some of people, you'd know as well, some of the heroes of the industry like Jane K from Birds and what she used to and still does but what they do with outside of just the website but creating those outfits and you know, I used to love going on there and dressing up as a yummy mummy and this, this will stay between us, won't it Nathan? Yeah.
Nathan Bush: No one else is listening to it
Grant Arnott: but, you know, just had a way and the site still to this day has a lot of character and personality, I guess is is what I see missing. You go back to Kate Morris with the door beauty and the Tim Tams and things like that. Just these emblems of personality and signature styles of those E commerce businesses. Hopefully a lot of people can come at me after this and say, no, no, we do this and this and I'll see a whole lot of new things. But I can tell you just the recent experience of judging the most entries we've ever seen was sadly a little underwhelming in terms of differentiation. And we have an innovation category and yeah, wow, I'm really going to make some enemies here, aren't I? But, but within that, you know, so much of it was about, well, our innovation was, yeah, we engaged Klaviyo and hey, I know their partner. Nothing wrong with engaging Klaviyo, but. But it was sort of like our innovation was we integrated some platform that did X. It's like,
Nathan Bush: well, look, I'll jump into your burning life raft with you. So I judged the top 50 people in E Commerce last year and definitely amazing people in there doing, you know, they're switched on. They know their stuff.
Grant Arnott: Aren't you one of those, how do you get to be a judge and get on the list?
Nathan Bush: I was like, mate, that's years ago. Like, you know that I'm now at that. I'm now at the veteran stage where they're like, oh, you're not a true contender anymore, so you can judge. So.
[Voiceover]: But I agree with you in that
Nathan Bush: I went through there looking for ideas, fresh ideas, but there was lots of people achieving a lot, lots of big numbers from, you know, integrations, efficiencies and that, doing great numbers and getting great roi. But there was a lack of new ideas and I would love to see that ignited again.
Grant Arnott: Yeah.
Nathan Bush: Do you think it comes from a risk profile at the moment? Do you think it comes from an investment perspective or do you think people like. Actually, retail is a simple game.
[Voiceover]: Expanding into new markets isn't just about selling more. It's about selling smarter. Every region has its own rules, currencies and customer preferences. But with Shopify, global expansion is simple. Localize storefronts, tailor experiences and build trust all from one unified platform. Shopify removes complexity so you can focus on growth and deliver tailored shopping experiences for every market in store and online. Accept over 100 currencies with Shopify payments for fast, familiar checkouts and use built in analytics to identify your most profitable markets. One platform built for global adaptability so you can scale without growing pains. Visit Shopify for enterprise to learn more
Nathan Bush: and start selling worldwide. There's an equation to follow. Let's not overcomplicate it.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, I think it's all of the above. And you know, there has been a lot of innovation over a long period of time, so maybe it's like, let's try this. But then someone will say, well there was a version of that 10 years ago and that's old tech now. But I just think the first thing people think of in E commerce with respect to innovation is tech. That worries me. The first thing they think of is, well, it's got to be some kind of big tech capex investment, but it can actually be a business model change. I remember a business called ModCloth something pretty inspiring where and it was a great. It was both a smart customer idea but also a smart business idea in that what they did was they said they basically had a customer group where it was like be the buyer and they would share their designs before they manufacture them with their customer base. So their internal designers were designing XX and X and said would go to the customer base and say be the buyer, which one do you want? And have a vote on it. And this is their customer base before they've even, you know, started sewing. They're okay. Which design is the favored one from our customers and based on volume it's like how many do we need to create? And like, well, no brainer in terms of efficiency gains but also a really fun way to embrace your customers.
Nathan Bush: Just doesn't fit into any neat box, does it?
Grant Arnott: No, no. And it's probably, you know, not a Shopify extension. So something that gets brushed aside.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. If you were going to start a new business in the retail industry today, do you have any ideas?
Grant Arnott: What would you do in the retail industry?
Nathan Bush: It doesn't have to be retail. It could be anywhere.
Grant Arnott: Look, I'm obviously a big fan of impact event style things because one, they're hard to do, two, we're good at it and three, I still think, you know, there's always a massive appetite for that and I think it's something we're looking at with Click Frenzy called Click Frenzy Live where we intend to move into the live event space. You go to any modest warehouse sale and there's usually a queue around the block and hasn't even been advertised. So I think there's a massive appetite for doing, you know, some high theatrical, short term pop up style warehouse mega sales that we'd like to get into. I'd love to be a podcaster like my mate Nathan Bush.
Nathan Bush: There's no money in it, don't do it.
Grant Arnott: Sitting in my lounge room talking to
Nathan Bush: people like me show me where the millions are. Maybe we need to combine you help find me the money.
Grant Arnott: Yeah. But no, look, I still believe there's a lot of opportunity untapped. And I can't give you all the secret plans that we're looking at at the moment, but I still believe there's two things that are still hindering E commerce growth and one is again, that lack of innovation at the front end. But number two for me is just a circuit breaker in logistics. We've hit a point where, yes, there's fast delivery and logistics are pretty good, but how do we unlock that? How do we move from where we've sat for some time since COVID around 16 to 17% of total retail to being 30 to 40% because it's that much easier to buy online and that much smoother. And I think there's. Getting to that point is where I think there's, you know, a lot of opportunity to unlock and you get something right in, in logistics. And it's not necessarily like you could change. You know, you start talking billions of dollars in transaction changes in terms of, you know, what you can achieve.
Nathan Bush: Yeah. If I go back to your original mission for click frenzy to help Australian retailers stand out when they're under attack from international retailers. We're now in 2025 and the conversation is still around that. Obviously the players have changed. We've got Amazon Timo Shein rather than your ASOS of the world. Do you think Australian retail has its own leg to stand on at the moment, or should we be more worried than ever around encroaching international competition?
Grant Arnott: Yeah, TEMU is definitely a challenge. Yeah. The three that you mentioned are the ones that get talked about the most. Amazon, honestly, I think in Australia is just winning by default. I guess it didn't really. It's not that Australians love Amazon, they just love what it brings in terms of convenience and. But if you look at actually what it is and could Australian retailers do something different? I guess if they got together really cohesively and wanted to and really genuinely said, okay, we're going to set aside some differences for a while and we're going to create an Australian Amazon. You got, you know, if you go to New Zealand, you've got trade me and you've got other businesses in New Zealand that have absolutely repelled any foreign invaders. That said, why foreign invaders would look at New Zealand with 5 million? It's not a big market for them. But yeah, I just think it's that, I guess the bonding of the industry under one true banner, you know, in my view, still got a ways to go.
Nathan Bush: Do you mean from a marketing perspective and operational perspective, like when you talk about combining to take it on.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, it's, you know, maybe a question without notice. I'm thinking through now, but I just look at. Okay, well, if I look at our experience with Click Frenzy and we had a lot of, you know, early buy in from the industry, but then we still had some that wanted to be separatists, I guess, if, if you like, and that's fine. We're not. I sound like I'm talking like I'm a nation, but we had, you know, big cohort of a big representation of retailers on Click Frenzy, but then we had those who definitely rode the wave well, but we're more actively ambushing it and it's like this is not helpful in the bigger scheme of things. And look, you know, we've come to terms with that and hey, it's a competitive world. But I just think whether it's us, you know, whether that or someone else or a not for profit, I think there's an opportunity for, for, you know, body to bring everyone together to create something special. And if you look at the funds that could be pulled into just establishing a Amazon equivalent, if you had all the, a significant, you know, volume of retailers getting together with a view to. We are going to dedicate half a percent of revenues towards this collective initiative, you'd have no problems, you know, shooing out a lot of international competition. I think surely Gabby's board, Gabby will be wanting 80% from them and that. Gabby loves me saying that, so I don't think I'll spend him there.
Nathan Bush: Love it. Grant, thank you so much for sharing what you have today. What is coming up for you? You don't sit still. So tell us what the next 12 months hold for you and Power Retail and Click Frenzy, what's the focus?
Grant Arnott: Yeah, look, I mentioned Click Frenzy Live. We're a big believer in that. We're also doing a lot more partnership events. We've got a great partnership going with PayPal where we've run a couple of joint collaborations where we just ran one a few weeks ago, a pretty big event called PayPal Frenzy. And we got over 200 retailers participating in that. We've just done something with Melbourne Airport. So I guess the travel category for us is something that was, you know, strong pre Covid died and now is building back up, which is great for us. And yeah, as I say, we're really keen to roll out the Click Frenzy Live format, which we think will deliver a lot of benefits to retailers, a membership program as well. So a more meaty one for Click Frenzy and then Also, yeah, on the power retail side, it's just transitioning into some new areas. We think retail media will be a real growth area and it already is. And so a lot of investment in the retail media space. And again, if you take your cues from the us, that's a big growth area and I think a big opportunity for retailers that hasn't been tapped in Australia yet. So whether you're large or small, there's a genuine opportunity to leverage your audience in other ways than just trying to flog them your merchandise. So I think there's a great scope for growth there and that's something that we'll be focused on with power Retail. We've got an event planned in June around that.
Nathan Bush: Cool.
Grant Arnott: And yeah, some other things too. But yeah, we run hard with a fairly small team here, so there's only so much you can get done.
Nathan Bush: You get a lot done and you have for a long time. So thank you so much for everything that you've done for the industry and
[Voiceover]: continue to do if people want to get in touch, because I think we will kind of have a lot of people go.
Nathan Bush: Actually, we've got to think about Click Frenzy differently, especially, like, obviously there's a lot more there, but just that point that you made around driving customers to your website is so important. I think it's so needed right now. If people are interested in the opportunities around, especially Click Frenzy, what's the best way to get in touch and learn more?
Grant Arnott: Yeah, I think starting point, anyone can look me up on LinkedIn, but certainly go to clickfrenzy.com if you're interested in seeing what our audience looks like, what the value proposition is, if you haven't done it before or if you haven't done it for a while. I think, you know, most retailers have had a crack at Click Frenzy at some level. Some are still, you know, using it extensively. Others sometimes will use it for the events for a few years to build new customers and then farm those customers and then come back. So what I will say about the upcoming one in May, just for everyone's benefit, from a timing perspective, just with the election happening, May 3rd is great because this has happened a couple of times with our Mayhem event. We'll be running shortly after the election and everyone's nervous and holding back up until it happens, not knowing, you know, which way it's going to go. Am I going to get the government with more taxes, less taxes, am I going to be better or worse off based on that? But the one thing that they have as soon as the election's done is certainty for a period of time and. And that tends to unlock spending. That. That was our genuine experience. Yeah. So we think this mayhem will be a cracker. I have heard, you know, from a lot of retailers it's been a struggle in the first quarter of this year, nearly at an end as of, as of Monday, and we genuinely think it'll be a great time to stimulate sales, I think too.
Nathan Bush: And the other part of that is that leading up to an election, advertising gets really expensive through the performance channels as well. So.
Grant Arnott: Yeah, that's right. So between now and then. Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Bush: Grant, exciting times. Thank you so much for joining us on Add to Cart.
Grant Arnott: No worries. Thanks. Nathan
[Voiceover]: Grant is a true icon of our industry in Australia and he's someone that I've always looked up to in what he does and I'm really thankful that he not only came on to share his story on Add to Cart, but also really didn't hold back with his opinions and his thoughts around where we are as an industry. As someone who's been able to see the direction of the industry in the past, it's really great for him to share that with us right now because I've no doubt that what he's saying will come to fruition. So brilliant to get that view right now. Here are the three takeaways that I took away from that chat. Number one, top of the funnel still matters. One thing that really resonated was Grant's stance on Click Frenzy's role. It's all about driving traffic, not owning the customer. That, to me was a bit of a mind shift. In a world, a world where Google, Meta and Amazon are all trying to lock shoppers into their own walled garden. It's a rare thing to have someone who's opening up the top of the funnel for you. It's refreshing to hear a model focused on visibility and intent rather than control. If you're judging your channels purely by last click conversions, you know now that you could be missing out on channels that are building brand preference. And if your attribution model is still skewed towards whatever's cheapest and easiest to measure, it might be time to challenge that. Number two, innovation doesn't need a new platform. Grant highlighted ModCloth's Be the Buyer initiative where customers voted on products before they're made. It's a great example of low cost, high impact innovation. It gave customers a voice built pre launch buzz while reducing product risk. If your team's waiting on budget to innovate, don't it doesn't necessarily need budget, it needs new thinking. Try a pilot. Involve your customers earlier. Test something fast and scrappy. It might be a survey, a pre sale campaign, or even a test group. I know these things don't sound like innovation, but they are the starting points. It doesn't need to be expensive to be impactful. And number three is Retail losing its spark While judging the Power Retail All Star Bash Awards, Grant looked over 100 websites and in his words, most of them just looked and felt the same. Highly optimized, sure, but lacking spark, story or anything memorable in his view. While performance is important, personality still matters. Templates might be efficient, but if your site doesn't tell your story, what's left to connect with? Start small. Revisit your emails, your product descriptions, your homepage hero. How do you inject a little bit more personality and a little bit more a little brand? Voice can go a long way. Now if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a friend or a colleague. Maybe someone who will resonate with the idea around the need for more innovation and to shake things up in E commerce. And if you can, leave us a quick review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It helps us find new listeners for the show. And as always, a huge thank you to our partners at Shopify and Klaviyo for making add to cart.
Nathan Bush: Possibly.
[Voiceover]: Thanks again for listening. And until next time, keep those customers adding Descartes.
